Hamas must be eradicated

[icehorse]

The common chant to exterminate Hamas
is ill considered IMO. This "final solution"
approach has failed for 70 years, leading
only to increasing conflict.

So we have to learn to live with terrorist organizations? Really?
And I have to say that likening this to "the final solution" is really obscene

 

[icehorse]

I get all my information from various sources. Including wikileaks, Public Eye and other highly independent sources. 15,000 dead and missing now. A city in smoking ruins. What other descriptive word for death and destruction, wholesale, should I use?

Context not only matters, it is essential !

 

[Little Dragon]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

But I'm not sure why you're defending Hamas?

Yes we shall.

If you can explain why you think I am defending Hamas first, because that is highly offensive and I now think that you are attempting to smear me. Well I know that game well, if you want a smear war, I can give you one.

 

[Little Dragon]

Context not only matters, it is essential !

Which is why I selected the word. Obliteration.

 

[Revoltingest]

So we have to learn to live with terrorist organizations? Really?

When the option of exterminating them all
is an even worse option, yes.
The trick is twofold....
- Behave morally, ie, give justice to all others
so that they don't become violent radicals.
- Have proper security measures in place.
It's why access to airline cockpits is limited.
It's why airports sniff for explosives.

And I have to say that likening this to "the final solution" is really obscene

Of course you do. You're OK with "exterminating"
the group you dislike. So you must ignore the
parallel with you know who.
BTW, tis a greater obscenity that so many actually
approve of Israel's war crimes, oppression, &
apartheid. You seen rather silent on that.

 

[icehorse]

BTW, tis a greater obscenity that so many actually
approve of Israel's war crimes, oppression, &
apartheid. You seen rather silent on that.

I disagree with your assessments here. And you and I won't make any progress debating each other on this topic, so see you elsewhere.

 

[Little Dragon]

BTW, tis a greater obscenity that so many actually
approve of Israel's war crimes, oppression, &
apartheid. You seen rather silent on that.

I suspect that often they do not have Israel's interests at heart, that their support for Israeli excess, is founded on less wholesome motives than protecting Israeli citizens from the horrors that Hamas would like to dish out to them. I suspect a distinct lack of empathy for the Palestinians, is a consequence of their religious designation.

 

[Little Dragon]

I disagree with your assessments here. And you and I won't make any progress debating each other on this topic, so see you elsewhere.

Ditto to that.

 

[setarcos]

that argument could be used to excuse any atrocity imaginable.

And I'm sure it has, unfortunately it is a reality that must be judged on a case by case basis. War itself is an atrocity.

The reality is, there are lines, that must not be crossed. As the Nazis at their war crime trials discovered.

Agreed. But as I've said those lines must be addressed on a case by case basis. War itself is a crime against humanity. But the consequences of not doing something based upon the fact that all factors that may be consequential to that action are not within your absolute control may be catastrophic to humanity as well.
Should we destroy a radicalist Muslim stronghold even though that stronghold contains hundreds of innocent civilians and hostages if they are about to launch a nuclear rocket towards other innocent civilians that don't agree with their ideologies? There are no easy answers in war and mass hostilities. Think about this....many, many, German civilians, combatant prisoners, and concentration camp prisoners were killed as a direct result of Allied actions taken against the Nazi war machine. Should the Allies not have acted since such collateral damage were possibly going to happen we all would be Nazi's, dead or their subservients right now. That not only would include Jews but most Muslims as well. How many more millions would have died compared to the thousands that did unintentionally?
Hamas has deliberately murdered thousands and is deliberately causing the deaths of thousands more, why isn't any yelling for Israel to get their *** in there and save however many more they can from Hamas's deliberate actions since its obvious from a tactical and strategic point of view its necessary to ensure future atrocities like this and what has happened are less likely in the future?

As Mr Putin knows, given his outstanding arrest warrant for genocide.

Of which he was convicted because no known militarily strategic reason was discovered that would justify shooting rockets into housing complexes. Israel has very good military strategic reason for bombing the targets it has. The combatants are there and firing rockets at Israel.
Also you will notice, Mr Putin started his war based on little more than anecdotal and speculative evidence of its necessity, Ukraine didn't.
Israel didn't start its war. And Israel's decision to go after Hamas and eliminate its compacity to function in Gaza is based on sound independently corroborated evidence and necessity.
Why hasn't any of the Palestinian protesters demanded of Hamas to release the hostage's and let the Palestinian people seek safety? They are literally preventing people from seeking safety. Evidence has been presented that Hamas is literally gunning down their own people who are trying to do just that.

 

[setarcos]

What I do know, is this, to show mercy is not weakness.
I hope the people of Israel, can find mercy, in the midst of their horror and fury.

Mercy is not Israel's to give when its not within its capability to do that. Mercy is within the hands of Hamas. Unless you mean by mercy to stop pursuing Hamas -you know the people who've shown no humanity, mercy, or simple common decency to their enemies or their own people - in order that Hamas can regroup, rearm, come up with fresh more successful plans, and continue to dehumanize, and subjugate their own people for their own purposes in order to kill more Jews/Israelis?

 

[setarcos]

Israel created the concentration camp GAZA and has been breaking the rules of civility for decades.

Well, I see where your ideologies stand. I'm not sure a reasonable discussion can be had with such rhetoric.
If you study the history of the Gaza strip you'll see that Gaza was under Egyptian rule after the British left and Israeli control only after the second time Arabs, Egypt in particular attacked Israel and lost it. It then became a semi successfully progressive enclave progressing towards self government and autonomy until radical Muslims mucked it up with their continual insistence on destroying Israel and all Jews along with the U.S. - the great Satan. Attack and Israeli response. Attack and Israeli response.

 

[Esteban X]

So we have to learn to live with terrorist organizations? Really?
And I have to say that likening this to "the final solution" is really obscene

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I say that about both sides of the conflict. I have no skin in the game so hold no opinion except that the entire situation is horrible for all concerned.

 

[Little Dragon]

Mercy is not Israel's to give when its not within its capability to do that.

Obviously that is not true. You're actually suggesting mass murder is the only way to conduct a counter terrorism operation. Disgusting.

 

[Little Dragon]

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I say that about both sides of the conflict. I have no skin in the game so hold no opinion except that the entire situation is horrible for all concerned.

History will judge.

 

[Little Dragon]

Israel has very good military strategic reason for bombing the targets it has.

They can argue that at the Hague, can't they? I for one do not believe the tactical reasons for bombing Gaza wholesale justify the strategic aims, unless those strategic aims include the intentional genocide of the Palestinians.

 

[Little Dragon]

In order that Hamas can regroup, rearm, come up with fresh more successful plans, and continue to dehumanize, and subjugate their own people for their own purposes

That's OK the Israelis are doing all that for them and more.

 

[Little Dragon]

Should we destroy a radicalist Muslim stronghold even though that stronghold contains hundreds of innocent civilians and hostages if they are about to launch a nuclear rocket towards other innocent civilians that don't agree with their ideologies?

Hamas do not have nuclear rockets, Israel almost certainly does. Israel is not fighting for survival, Israel is collectively punishing the Palestinians as well as pursuing Hamas for inflicting a grievous, but non threatening militarily speaking, blow against the innocent. This is a "war" of revenge and extermination. Just what Israel plans to exterminate exactly, is not clear at this point.

 

[Revoltingest]

Israel didn't start its war. And Israel's decision to go after Hamas and eliminate its compacity to function in Gaza is based on sound

Israel started it prior to 1948, by massacring Palestinians
& stealing their land. And in 2020, Israel killed more of
them than in any prior year going back 2 decades.
The Hamas attack is arguably merely the latest salvo.
And now Israel has set the record for killing civilians
at 11,000+.

 

[setarcos]

The most obvious example is collective punishment, but there are others.

Collective punishment? Are we to be realistic here or just stick to an idealized fantasy world?
I'm willing to reason this through though. Perhaps your right.
First, what do you think the criteria is for determining if "collective punishment" has taken place is?
Second, how is Israel guilty of collective punishment?

I find it puzzling that when someone points out war crimes being committed, the response is "what do you think Israel should do?".

Um, nooo... That question came at the end of an explanation of why Israel hasn't committed the war crimes its being accused of. Its meant to get you to think about the difference between an idealized version of what shouldn't happen and the reality of what inadvertently but unintentionally does happen during the chaos of war. Their not playing a game of monopoly over there.
Let me give you an example...
Are you familiar with the "felony murder rule" here in the U.S.? It basically states that if A and B attempt to commit a crime but during the crime only A murdered someone then even though B didn't B is still liable for murder and can be charged.
That goes even if neither A or B directly committed murder themselves but an innocent bystander gets killed by the return fire from the store clerk who was attempting to protect himself. The clerk isn't charged with murder. A and B are. You get the difference?

Uh, how about not war crimes?

War itself is a crime, a shame, and an inevitable result of things like this...unrealistic and misdirected innuendo's and accusations.

Israel can do anything it wants that is within international law, including war, and including negotiations.

Its patently absurd to negotiate with people capable of such atrocities for a number of reasons, one of which is encouragement for the next animals that come along with an awareness of what to do to get something you want. That's one reason a standing policy of the United States is not to negotiate with terrorists.
Once war begins with such an enemy international law is tentative at best if one wants a successful ,and ironically, ultimately humane result overall at the end.

collective punishment and indiscriminate bombing of a civilian population is a war crime.

I don't get why people can't understand that its not indiscriminate bombing of the civilian population. Its discriminate bombing of identified combative threats.

Collateral murder is not an option, and the scale of the murder being perpetrated here is horrifying.

Murder is unjustified killing. Israel has a perfectly justified reason for bombing combative threats. Unfortunately given the kind of enemy they are dealing with collateral death is inevitable.
But I agree, the scale is horrifying. But then again it is horrifyingly large because of the nature of the enemy Israel is fighting not because Israel intentionally wants it that way.
Both parties to this war have made their ideologies painfully clear and from their own mouths. Israel doesn't want to kill Palestinians but Hamas ensures that it can't help but do that. Hamas's own conduct shows it doesn't care about Palestinian civilians and has openly stated that it will do anything necessary to kill all Jews and destroy Israel.

Look, I agree, the realities of this world can be utterly horrifying. But we have to realize that one of the primary goals of the Bad guys of this world are to paint the Good guys of this world as Bad and themselves as Good. And one way to do that is to ensure that in order to eliminate the Bad in this world the Good guys inevitably get dirty.
Ever occur to you that one of the reasons Egypt was so reluctant to open its borders to Palestinians trying to flee the conflict is that Hamas originated out of Egypt back in the day?
Maybe, just maybe the powers that be in Egypt wanted to ensure that those Palestinians would have maximal probability of getting hurt or killed if they weren't allowed to leave the combat zone. Collateral damage that could only help Hamas.
You have to take into consideration the depths of evil Israel is dealing with on all sides of its borders. And I mean evil I don't mean justified anger.

 

[Orbit]

Collective punishment? Are we to be realistic here or just stick to an idealized fantasy world?
I'm willing to reason this through though. Perhaps your right.
First, what do you think the criteria is for determining if "collective punishment" has taken place is?
Second, how is Israel guilty of collective punishment?

Um, nooo... That question came at the end of an explanation of why Israel hasn't committed the war crimes its being accused of. Its meant to get you to think about the difference between an idealized version of what shouldn't happen and the reality of what inadvertently but unintentionally does happen during the chaos of war. Their not playing a game of monopoly over there.
Let me give you an example...
Are you familiar with the "felony murder rule" here in the U.S.? It basically states that if A and B attempt to commit a crime but during the crime only A murdered someone then even though B didn't B is still liable for murder and can be charged.
That goes even if neither A or B directly committed murder themselves but an innocent bystander gets killed by the return fire from the store clerk who was attempting to protect himself. The clerk isn't charged with murder. A and B are. You get the difference?

War itself is a crime, a shame, and an inevitable result of things like this...unrealistic and misdirected innuendo's and accusations.

Its patently absurd to negotiate with people capable of such atrocities for a number of reasons, one of which is encouragement for the next animals that come along with an awareness of what to do to get something you want. That's one reason a standing policy of the United States is not to negotiate with terrorists.
Once war begins with such an enemy international law is tentative at best if one wants a successful ,and ironically, ultimately humane result overall at the end.

I don't get why people can't understand that its not indiscriminate bombing of the civilian population. Its discriminate bombing of identified combative threats.

Murder is unjustified killing. Israel has a perfectly justified reason for bombing combative threats. Unfortunately given the kind of enemy they are dealing with collateral death is inevitable.
But I agree, the scale is horrifying. But then again it is horrifyingly large because of the nature of the enemy Israel is fighting not because Israel intentionally wants it that way.
Both parties to this war have made their ideologies painfully clear and from their own mouths. Israel doesn't want to kill Palestinians but Hamas ensures that it can't help but do that. Hamas's own conduct shows it doesn't care about Palestinian civilians and has openly stated that it will do anything necessary to kill all Jews and destroy Israel.

Look, I agree, the realities of this world can be utterly horrifying. But we have to realize that one of the primary goals of the Bad guys of this world are to paint the Good guys of this world as Bad and themselves as Good. And one way to do that is to ensure that in order to eliminate the Bad in this world the Good guys inevitably get dirty.
Ever occur to you that one of the reasons Egypt was so reluctant to open its borders to Palestinians trying to flee the conflict is that Hamas originated out of Egypt back in the day?
Maybe, just maybe the powers that be in Egypt wanted to ensure that those Palestinians would have maximal probability of getting hurt or killed if they weren't allowed to leave the combat zone. Collateral damage that could only help Hamas.
You have to take into consideration the depths of evil Israel is dealing with on all sides of its borders. And I mean evil I don't mean justified anger.

Yeah, I've already gone over all of the points you raise in posts on several threads here, and don't have the patience to repeat myself yet again. If you really want to know, search my posts.