Hamas must be eradicated

[Little Dragon]

Murder is unjustified killing. Israel has a perfectly justified reason for bombing combative threats. Unfortunately given the kind of enemy they are dealing with collateral death is inevitable.

Your opinion. The Israelis are ostensibly conducting a counter terrorist operation in a way they wouldn't even dream of doing on their own cities.

This is the way it is. It's clear to see.

 

[Little Dragon]

Collective punishment? Are we to be realistic here or just stick to an idealized fantasy world?

Collective punishment is prohibited under the Geneva Conventions. As well as being a symptom of collective and individual moral sickness.

 

[setarcos]

..too simplistic.
The only way to peace, is about compromise.

How do you compromise with an ideology that just wants to kill, torture, rape, and mutilate you until even your memory doesn't exist anymore? What would be the compromise?

It is easy to claim that the Palestinians won't comprise, so they deserve
everything they get.

This isn't about the Palestinians, unless you equate them to Hamas and their sick ideologies.
And by the way I never said anything about the Palestinians not wanting to compromise. They were well on their way to successful and productive compromises with Israel pre Hamas. Sure there were bumps in the road but they were advancing towards productive solutions until derailed by radicals.
No unintentional casualty deserves what they get.

It seems that human beings never learn. If we want a decent future for our grandchildren,
the international community should INSIST on a settlement.

God bless you I agree. But they did agree on a settlement with the establishment of the state of Israel. Something its Arab neighbors will not accept. And continuously try to destroy via proxy terrorist groups and occasionally direct military confrontation.
What's scary though is that what your actually describing is Armageddon. And I'm afraid its well on its way to getting here.

..but overall, they don't .. they merely carry on with the 'status quo'.
If you tease and provoke 'animals' in a cage, what do you expect to happen?

Whos they? What status quo? Whos the animals and how are they being teased and provoked?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Whos they?

Umm .. the G7? Those with global power? etc.

What status quo?

Allowing Israel to establish its complete authority, according to perceived 'Biblical Jewish homeland'
i.e. supporting Zionism

Whos the animals and how are they being teased and provoked?

A common attitude of 'you lost wars against Israel' and so your loss of land and authority
is of your own doing, and we have a right to "treat you like ****".

..and yes, I can't stop Armageddon. I can only say it how I see it.

 

[Bthoth]

Well, I see where your ideologies stand. I'm not sure a reasonable discussion can be had with such rhetoric.

I am seeing the exact problem. Your next line is complete garbage

If you study the history of the Gaza strip you'll see that Gaza was under Egyptian rule after the British left and Israeli control only after the second time Arabs, Egypt in particular attacked Israel and lost it.

Here read this to learn beyond the rhetoric:

On 5 June 1967, as the UNEF was in the process of leaving the zone, Israel launched a series of preemptive airstrikes against Egyptian airfields and other facilities, launching its war effort.[24] Egyptian forces were caught by surprise, and nearly all of Egypt's military aerial assets were destroyed, giving Israel air supremacy. Simultaneously, the Israeli military launched a ground offensive into Egypt's Sinai Peninsula as well as the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip.


If you had no idea that israel fired the first shot of 1967, you perhaps could not even spell 'apartheid' or oppression.

But Dross is only 5 letters, keep it in mind or just write each letter on one of your fingers.

 

[Bthoth]

How do you compromise with an ideology that just wants to

Impose apartheid, oppression and expect impunity

their sick ideologies.

Of animal sacrifice on a temple that does not exist.

Sure there were bumps in the road but they were advancing towards productive solutions until derailed by radicals.

Yep the settlers are going against both, the Jews and palestinians. Them terrorist have corrupted israel by returning to radicalism.

No unintentional casualty deserves what they get.

Agreed..... HAMAS should have just focused on the terrorist, that continued to use violence, the settlers that actually believe that a temple is going to be built.

And continuously try to destroy via proxy terrorist groups and occasionally direct military confrontation.

Yep the settlers have been used as proxy terrorist and since they claim to be Jewish get immunity from israel.

What's scary though is that what your actually describing is Armageddon.

It is exodus 22, that exposes what is to happen to the dross (israel)...... not the Jews.

And I'm afraid its well on its way to getting here.

I have been trying to stop it but apparently it's too late

Whos the animals and how are they being teased and provoked?

The terrorist (settlers) being mislead by the rabbi'd that a temple must be built.

And I am clear that house of knowledge will not be in that apartheid or city of blood.

Nothing will change that fact.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

To be clear, I'm making a distinction between Palestinian civilians, and members of Hamas. All members of Hamas must be dealt with, for example by imprisoning them for life. This terrorist organization must be utterly destroyed, even the leaders sitting in cushy hotels a thousand miles away from the war.

The world has left it to Israel to perform this task, and much of the world complains about how Israel is going about it.

Fine, the world needs to step up and finish the job for Israel. Easy Peasy.

"you can bomb people, but you can't bomb ideas / ideology"

I don't remember where that quote comes from, but it certainly seems to apply here.
Sure, terrorists must be dealt with... But merely bombing them to smitherenes and not doing anything else, is not going to make the underlying ideology disappear.

And in the particular case of Hamas, Israel makes for an easy target. They are giving Palestinians a lot of reasons to hate them. That in turn gives predatory organizations like Hamas an easy feeding ground to operate from and become / remain powerful.

Take a way that feeding ground. The ideology will persist (at least for some time) but they will find it a lot more difficult to rally supporters behind them.

 

[Sargonski]

To be clear, I'm making a distinction between Palestinian civilians, and members of Hamas. All members of Hamas must be dealt with, for example by imprisoning them for life. This terrorist organization must be utterly destroyed, even the leaders sitting in cushy hotels a thousand miles away from the war.

The world has left it to Israel to perform this task, and much of the world complains about how Israel is going about it.

Fine, the world needs to step up and finish the job for Israel. Easy Peasy.

I am not a fan of these terrorist organizations either - and would like to see them erradicated but, not by collective punishment - killing a bunch of people who has nothign to do with Hamas .. killing scores of children and babies in multi story crowded apartment complex because some bad guy on the watch list went into that building .. this is a war crime .. folks who commit such crimes are themselves terrorists.

The world did not leave the task up to Israel ? Israel barred the world from trying to help. The world is not doing a good job of "utterly destroying" the Israeli terrorist organization .. and as you say about the one terrorist organization - . all members must be dealt with.

Anything but "easy Peasy" for the world to step up and take out leaders of terrorist organizations. such as Bibi and Biden .. and former war criminals such as Obama and Hillary.

How do you figure it is easy peasy to protect the right of self defence of the Palestinians against the Israeli terrorists .. from what Modi has called a terrorist nation - many other nations voicing similar invectives? Should we arm the Palestinians againt the foreign occupier as we did the Ukrainians ? -- is that the "easy Peasy" solution you are talking about ?

 

[Sargonski]

Impose apartheid, oppression and expect impunity

Of animal sacrifice on a temple that does not exist.

Yep the settlers are going against both, the Jews and palestinians. Them terrorist have corrupted israel by returning to radicalism.

Agreed..... HAMAS should have just focused on the terrorist, that continued to use violence, the settlers that actually believe that a temple is going to be built.

Yep the settlers have been used as proxy terrorist and since they claim to be Jewish get immunity from israel.


It is exodus 22, that exposes what is to happen to the dross (israel)...... not the Jews.

I have been trying to stop it but apparently it's too late



The terrorist (settlers) being mislead by the rabbi'd that a temple must be built.

And I am clear that house of knowledge will not be in that apartheid or city of blood.

Nothing will change that fact.

Don't forget about the "Cleansing of the Peoples Land" Deut 32:43 (need to go to a non modern Bible .. MT or anything Older .. where the "Cleansing" part of the story has not been removed)

Here is the LXX version .. which keeps in the "Other Divinities" - for a good chuckle in Pious Fraud compare to any modern version and look what was edited out.

"O heavens, rejoice with Him
Bow to Him, all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with His people
and let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him.
For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons,
be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
And the Lord will Cleanse His people’s land"

The Cleansing has commenced in earnest of late .. from the River to the Sea

 

[Bthoth]

Don't forget about the "Cleansing of the Peoples Land" Deut 32:43 (need to go to a non modern Bible .. MT or anything Older .. where the "Cleansing" part of the story has not been removed)

Here is the LXX version .. which keeps in the "Other Divinities" - for a good chuckle in Pious Fraud compare to any modern version and look what was edited out.

"O heavens, rejoice with Him
Bow to Him, all sons of the divine
O nations, rejoice with His people
and let all angels of the divine strengthen themselves in Him.
For He’ll avenge the blood of His sons,
be vengeful, and wreak vengeance and recompense justice on his foes
And the Lord will Cleanse His people’s land"

The Cleansing has commenced in earnest of late .. from the River to the Sea

Be specific;

18 “Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you.


What you quoted has too much ambiguity.

 

[Sargonski]

Be specific;

18 “Son of man, the people of Israel have become dross to me; all of them are the copper, tin, iron and lead left inside a furnace. They are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: ‘Because you have all become dross, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 As silver, copper, iron, lead and tin are gathered into a furnace to be melted with a fiery blast, so will I gather you in my anger and my wrath and put you inside the city and melt you.


What you quoted has too much ambiguity.

But I was curious about your reaction of being proved wrong about egypt (1967).

That cleansing comment, just exposed your approval of genocide............. I have friends living in israel. But my friends DO NOT support that apartheid (dividing of people). When you meet a Jew, you will find the same applies about universally. The dross are the nasty that expect to be forgiven because of blood line.

Mach confusion here friend .. how is my showing you the genocidal ideology in Hebrew Scripture .. approving of genocide ? --

This is not my ideology but that of Lord YHWH - and the extremists conducting this Ethnic Cleansing .. and who told you all of the Israeli's share this evil ideology .. of collective punishment - Killing Children Babies and fetuses on account of the sins of others .. and other mass slaughter of innocents. It is not me who approves of this genocide .. Do you ?

and what on earth did you prove wrong about egypt ? - no idea what you are talking about there .. is this the Young Earth Creationist narrative you are referring to ? Earth is only 6000 years old .. that kind of thing .. Moses out of Egypting the Reed Sea .. every word God Breathed ? ... sorry if I forgot which sad trope you were peddling .. and claiming something I said was false on this basis .. what was it that you think I said by the way .. such that I was proven false .. did you remember that much ?

 

[icehorse]

"you can bomb people, but you can't bomb ideas / ideology"

I don't remember where that quote comes from, but it certainly seems to apply here.
Sure, terrorists must be dealt with... But merely bombing them to smitherenes and not doing anything else, is not going to make the underlying ideology disappear.

And in the particular case of Hamas, Israel makes for an easy target. They are giving Palestinians a lot of reasons to hate them. That in turn gives predatory organizations like Hamas an easy feeding ground to operate from and become / remain powerful.

Take a way that feeding ground. The ideology will persist (at least for some time) but they will find it a lot more difficult to rally supporters behind them.

Mostly agreed, but I don't think Muslims in the region will ever think Israel is doing anything right.

 

[icehorse]

I am not a fan of these terrorist organizations either - and would like to see them erradicated but, not by collective punishment - killing a bunch of people who has nothign to do with Hamas .. killing scores of children and babies in multi story crowded apartment complex because some bad guy on the watch list went into that building .. this is a war crime .. folks who commit such crimes are themselves terrorists.

The world did not leave the task up to Israel ? Israel barred the world from trying to help. The world is not doing a good job of "utterly destroying" the Israeli terrorist organization .. and as you say about the one terrorist organization - . all members must be dealt with.

Anything but "easy Peasy" for the world to step up and take out leaders of terrorist organizations. such as Bibi and Biden .. and former war criminals such as Obama and Hillary.

How do you figure it is easy peasy to protect the right of self defence of the Palestinians against the Israeli terrorists .. from what Modi has called a terrorist nation - many other nations voicing similar invectives? Should we arm the Palestinians againt the foreign occupier as we did the Ukrainians ? -- is that the "easy Peasy" solution you are talking about ?

There are too many points of disagreement between us to be worth debating.

But I will say that "easy peasy" was sarcasm

 

[Bthoth]

Mach confusion here friend .. how is my showing you the genocidal ideology in Hebrew Scripture .. approving of genocide ? --
It is not me who approves of this genocide .. Do you ?

NO!

and what on earth did you prove wrong about egypt ?

It was not your post. My apologies

. is this the Young Earth Creationist narrative you are referring to ? Earth is only 6000 years old .. that kind of thing

No..... I prefer science to enable comprehension beyond religious belief. The name of god is in theorem, not hebrew.

.. Moses out of Egypting the Reed Sea .. every word God Breathed ?

Not even close.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Mostly agreed, but I don't think Muslims in the region will ever think Israel is doing anything right.

Well, that will certainly last for at least as long as they indeed are doint it wrong


There's another aspect here that I see that imo seems to be completely overlooked by both sides...
Imo, nobody cares as little for the well-being of muslims, palestinians in particular, as fundamentalist muslims (like Hamas) themselves.

Almost to the point where I would be willing to say that they don't even WANT Israel to treat palestinians "right". That in fact would be their worst nightmare as that would take away ammunition for their propaganda.

But it's not just the "fundamentalist terror groups". It's also entire nations imo.
For example............ why is the border with Egypt closed? Why aren't they taking in civilian Palestinian refugees?
When the whole ISIS mess started in Syria, where did those muslim refugees go en mass? Europe. Where were the muslims countries, MUCH closer to home, to help these people out? Worse even: they were even being critical of western nations for not taking enough of them and therefor "not caring enough".

It's so bad that even from within the islamic countries, we saw cartoons popping up such as this one:

Then there's all that propaganda about how "the evil west" is "killing millions of muslims".
But if you actually run the numbers, FAR MORE muslims are being killed by those fundie muslims then there are muslims killed in all western military operations combined.

Eventhough I am also of the opinion that how Israel treats Palestinians is simply scandalous and a complete rape of human rights etc, it seems to me that the worst enemy of average Joe Muslim citizens in islamic countries is NOT Israel or any western country. It's their own muslim bretheren. Fundies, jihadists, etc... have an invested interest in stirring up relations with western countries and to put oil on the fire.

And if we reply to those calls with islamophobia and how israel treats palestinians, then we are giving them exactly what they are really asking for.

Their entire raison d'être literally depends on hostile relations with the "disbelievers".

Israel dropping flowers on palestinians instead of bombs, is literally Hamas' worst nightmare. An Israel that doesn't engage in hostile behavior towards Palestinians is the very last thing they want.

Hamas needs palestinians to be miserable. They need them to be killed and oppressed.
And if you take a step back and analyse their behavior, how THEY rule in Gaza, how THEY spend their money,... you can see that that is exactly what they are shooting for: a miserable population of which they can blame the misery on Israel.

Meanwhile, Israel plays exactly right into their cards.

 

[Bthoth]

. and claiming something I said was false on this basis .. what was it that you think I said by the way .. such that I was proven false .. did you remember that much ?

My apologies wrong poster.

 

[Bthoth]

Mach confusion here friend .. how is my showing you the genocidal ideology in Hebrew Scripture .. approving of genocide ? --

This is not my ideology but that of Lord YHWH - and the extremists conducting this Ethnic Cleansing .. and who told you all of the Israeli's share this evil ideology .. of collective punishment - Killing Children Babies and fetuses on account of the sins of others .. and other mass slaughter of innocents. It is not me who approves of this genocide .. Do you ?

and what on earth did you prove wrong about egypt ? - no idea what you are talking about there .. is this the Young Earth Creationist narrative you are referring to ? Earth is only 6000 years old .. that kind of thing .. Moses out of Egypting the Reed Sea .. every word God Breathed ? ... sorry if I forgot which sad trope you were peddling .. and claiming something I said was false on this basis .. what was it that you think I said by the way .. such that I was proven false .. did you remember that much ?

I made the mistake, i have you mixed up with seratos.

I will fix comments.

 

[Bthoth]

If you study the history of the Gaza strip you'll see that Gaza was under Egyptian rule after the British left and Israeli control only after the second time Arabs, Egypt in particular attacked Israel and lost it.

I can be found to misread items too.

But I have the ability to be wrong and correct my mistakes. Do you have any such integrity?




Israel attacked egypt!

But few know what happened in 1967 because the narrative that israel has published and taught it's children is completely backwards. Just like the idea of the levant being given by god as a promised land. All rubbish!

 

[icehorse]

There's another aspect here that I see that imo seems to be completely overlooked by both sides...
Imo, nobody cares as little for the well-being of muslims, palestinians in particular, as fundamentalist muslims (like Hamas) themselves.

Then there's all that propaganda about how "the evil west" is "killing millions of muslims".
But if you actually run the numbers, FAR MORE muslims are being killed by those fundie muslims then there are muslims killed in all western military operations combined.

it seems to me that the worst enemy of average Joe Muslim citizens in islamic countries is NOT Israel or any western country. It's their own muslim bretheren. Fundies, jihadists, etc... have an invested interest in stirring up relations with western countries and to put oil on the fire.

Their entire raison d'être literally depends on hostile relations with the "disbelievers".

Israel dropping flowers on palestinians instead of bombs, is literally Hamas' worst nightmare. An Israel that doesn't engage in hostile behavior towards Palestinians is the very last thing they want.

I agree with almost all of this.

But given the 100 +/- year history, I don't think there is any flower dropping strategy that would work for Israel. Zooming way, way out, the Brits did a terrible job of carving up the ME 100 years ago. For the sake of discussion, let's say we decided to give half of Wyoming to the Israelis and they all decided to move there, leaving Israel to the Muslims.

I think the result would be utter chaos.

 

[Bthoth]

I agree with almost all of this.

But given the 100 +/- year history, I don't think there is any flower dropping strategy that would work for Israel. Zooming way, way out, the Brits did a terrible job of carving up the ME 100 years ago. For the sake of discussion, let's say we decided to give half of Wyoming to the Israelis and they all decided to move there, leaving Israel to the Muslims.

I think the result would be utter chaos.

Sure, they (Wyoming) voted for trump in 2016.................. and there are a bunch of hills there for them stupid zionists to build a temple and go back to animal sacrificing.
The red angus ranch is there................ to provide that perfect

RED HEIFER