Hamas must be eradicated

[Mock Turtle]

That's a good analogy.
Slave owners told themselves stories to justify
slavery & brutal treatment of slaves.
- They aren't as good as we are.
- You can't reason with those people.
- They hate us for no good reason.
- They're violent, & must be controlled.
- They're not <insert religion>.
- Scripture justifies what we do.
- Our critics are deluded & dishonest.

I'm an agnostic atheist, how would I know how to sort out religious problems - given that this is one part of this issue.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Does this mean they deserve how Israel treats them?

It sure doesn't promote trust, when they have been sending rockets regularly into Israel for so long.

A country run by authoritarian extremists, that
bombs civilians recklessly, that oppresses non-Jewish
citizens, that is rife with....

Death to Arabs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

....is worse than Hamas because it has the color
of authority, the backing of the western world,
& kills far more people while proclaiming to
be the innocent victim.

Extremists are like this. Hamas were the authority over Gaza - a slight but important difference.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm an agnostic atheist, how would I know how to sort out religious problems - given that this is one part of this issue.

It's a "Gorillas In The Mist" situation.
We watch them...how they behave, & their communication.
We begin to grok what they're about.

 

[Revoltingest]

It sure doesn't promote trust, when they have been sending rockets regularly into Israel for so long.

Do you see any reason for this...or
just baseless hatred of Israel?

Extremists are like this. Hamas were the authority over Gaza - a slight but important difference.

It's time to face the fact that Jews & Israelis
are not saints, ie, they too can hate too.
And boy oh boy, can they ever express it.
Apartheid, bombing, stealing, torturing.
The big difference is that Israel's hatred has
the full force of USA's taxpayers, UN veto, &
military to carry out their hatred
of Muslims.

 

[Mock Turtle]

It's a "Gorillas In The Mist" situation.
We watch them...how they behave, & their communication.
We begin to grok what they're about.

Well you seem to have made your mind up.

Do you see any reason for this...or
just baseless hatred of Israel?

Circle game.

It's time to face the fact that Jews & Israelis
are not saints, ie, they too can hate too.
And boy oh boy, can they ever express it.
Apartheid, bombing, stealing, torturing.
The big difference is that Israel's hatred has
the full force of USA's taxpayers, UN veto, &
military to carry out their hatred
of Muslims.

I wonder why that might be? Suicide bombing is rather a nasty way to kill - no person to punish, so hate on their beliefs?

 

[Revoltingest]

Well you seem to have made your mind up.

As have you.

Circle game.

Do you really believe that's all this 70 year conflict is?

I wonder why that might be? Suicide bombing is rather a nasty way to kill - no person to punish, so hate on their beliefs?

Israel kills so very many more in such a civilized
& high tech manner. But they're only non-Jews.

 

[Mock Turtle]

As have you.

You mean I'm not biased towards Palestinians? This is true.

Do you really believe that's all this 70 year conflict is?

I believe it is a tragedy of history - like so many others.

Israel kills so very many more in such a civilized
& high tech manner. But they're only non-Jews.

Is that your main complaint, that Israel can be just as brutal as others?

 

[icehorse]

It is indeed understandable why Israelis so easily
commit human rights violations & war crimes.
This leads to understanding why Hamas attacked
Israel.
The important thing...if solution is the goal...is to
figure out what each side needs for peace. But
there is only one side that has overwhelming
control over the other, so it falls to Israel to
end the oppression of Palestinians. This is
the beginning of a long bumpy road to peace.

You do have the gist of shoveling propaganda!

 

[icehorse]

Ow, certainly. Fundies are, for the most part, a lost cause.
But the fundies gain power on the shoulders of the "moderates". The fundies grow in number by radicalizing the "moderates".

And that's where you can hurt the fundies: make the moderates see that those who are branded the "enemy" by the fundies, in fact are not the enemy at all. Make them see that the fundies themselves are the enemy. 90% of the victims of the fundies... are muslims. The majority of their attacks are against other muslims...

It's hard to know how Muslims are ideologically divided. For example, roughly half of the Muslims living in the UK think being gay should be illegal. yikes!

 

[icehorse]

Judaism is not a simple religion to convert to, but nonetheless it is very silly that a white man who is born in the US and converts to Judaism has a more 'legitimate' claim to land in Israel than the Palestinian who has been there for a dozen generations to Zionists today.

Some interesting perspectives here. Pro-Israel no doubt, but the claims in this video are falsifiable - they're either true or not, regardless of who said them:

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Really?

Yes.

And all the while Hamas and such are building up their capability to do what they did on Oct 7th - so, lack of trust.

The primary reason they are able to "build up their capability" is because they can feed on the victimhood of palestinians who are being oppressed by Israel.

Without that oppression and ill-treatment, Hamas will have a very tough time to convince palestinians that Israel is the enemy.
Right now, it's easy as F. Israel is an enemy of palestinians because it acts like one. Stop acting like one. Start acting like a friend instead. See what happens.

Hamas is, and will stay, a terrorist organization. No need to start acting friendly to them.

Show the Palestinians that their worst enemy is Hamas itself and not Israel.
It will take time, but it will make a world of difference in the long run.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It's hard to know how Muslims are ideologically divided. For example, roughly half of the Muslims living in the UK think being gay should be illegal. yikes!

True.

Although I don't think that's really an exclusive muslim problem.
The near 50% of US christians who don't believe in evolution most likely share that same opinion.

 

[Revoltingest]

You mean I'm not biased towards Palestinians? This is true.

It explains defense of Israel's policies in light
of the massive death & destruction they cause,
ie, Palestinians just don't matter.

I believe it is a tragedy of history - like so many others.

Do such things just happen randomly,
or do they have sources, in which case,
what sources do you see?

Is that your main complaint, that Israel can be just as brutal as others?

My main complaint is that Israel continues
to pursue policies that reinforce the conflict.
Secondary complaint...
That USA is the primarily enabler of war
crimes & human rights abuse.

 

[Revoltingest]

You do have the gist of shoveling propaganda!

I'm quite surprised that you give me credit
for having the understanding of pro-Israel
anti-Muslim propaganda.

On 2nd thought, I wonder if you know
what "gist" means.

 

[icehorse]

I'm quite surprised that you give me credit
for having the understanding of pro-Israel
anti-Muslim propaganda.

On 2nd thought, I wonder if you know
what "gist" means.

says the man who won't read long posts, won't watch even short videos, and hates thoughts that cannot be reduced to sound bites

I think I have the gist..

 

[Revoltingest]

says the man who won't read long posts...

I read posts that are interesting.
But disorganized rants aren't worth my time.

.....won't watch even short videos....

Lazy posters who can't put a thought into their
own words, & expect others to sit thru a video
instead do not inspire watching something that
usually turns out to be a waste of time.

....and hates thoughts that cannot be reduced to sound bites....

I notice that your & the posts of other anti-Palestinian
types use complexity, ad hominem, & lengthy distraction
to hide lame rationalization for war crimes & human rights
violations by Israel.
Of course, your ilk is the king of soundbites....
War crimes? "Israel has the right to defend itself!"
Apartheid? "It doesn't exist! Equal rights for all!"
Religious fanatics? "The Jewish State is secular!"

I think I have the gist..

I see only blind faith in God's Chosen People.
No attempt to understand the other side, no
values except for benefit to the favored tribe,
& no humanity for The Other, be they Muslim
or trans....a philosophy of division & derision.

 

[icehorse]

Of course, your ilk is the king of soundbites....
War crimes? "Israel has the right to defend itself!"
Apartheid? "It doesn't exist! Equal rights for all!"
Religious fanatics? "The Jewish State is secular!"

The laziness of your thinking continues to shine thru, for all to see.

fwiw, i've said none of those things, and in my experience, whenever I attempt to bring any nuance to a discussion, you can't try to shut it down fast enough.

on most topics, your mind is already made up, and new information is shunned. You demand a mythical, goldilocks amount of information from other posters. Can't be too short, or too nuanced, or too long, it has to be just right, or you can't cope.

 

[Revoltingest]

The laziness...

Tis better to be lazy than
fanatically anti-Muslim & anti-trans hatred.

...on most topics, your mind is already made up...

Indeed, I am thoroughly irrevocably convinced
that oppression & war crimes lead only to
more violence. And that is wrong.
You support what I oppose, & with equal fervor.

 

[icehorse]

Tis better to be lazy than
fanatically anti-Muslim & anti-trans hatred.


Indeed, I am thoroughly irrevocably convinced
that oppression & war crimes lead only to
more violence. And that is wrong.
You support what I oppose, & with equal fervor.

After all these discussions you continue to distort my positions. I have summarized yours, you refuse to summarize mine. Instead, you put my positions - and those of other posters - thru your fun house mirrors, so that you can strawman them.

 

[libre]

Some interesting perspectives here. Pro-Israel no doubt, but the claims in this video are falsifiable - they're either true or not, regardless of who said them:

Most points in this video could warrant their own thread - I believe the trend in the speakers answers is apologia.

My view is that the Palestinian leadership rejected the previous agreements regarding statehood because they were not meaningful concessions nor did they ensure security for the Palestinians. They were to settle the status quo in their colonizers favor (first British, later Israel as a US project.)

In retrospect, Palestine would be better off if they had chosen to take any partition agreement instead of getting paid in led, but in my view to blame this alone as the reason why Palestine doesn't have a state is tantamount to victim blaming.