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Hamas must be eradicated

Alien826

Alien826

No religious beliefs
setarcos said:
If you got this out of what I've said then I woefully and inadequately made it clear where I stand in consideration of the Palestinians people. If so I must apologize for being limited in by ability to express myself. My main focus is on the ideological goals and the particular people that express those goals. If the Palestinian people in general embrace the ideological tactics of Hamas then they are a deranged people which pose a threat to humanity. I don't believe that to be the case. I believe the majority of the current Palestinians living under Hamas's leadership are an oppressed peoples....as oppressed as they claim to be by Israel which is doubly tragic.
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This what prompted my response.

"Perhaps, how a people respond to their oppressions is ingrained in who they are as a people?"

"Who they are" suggested a kind of overall condemnation of the Palestinians. If you didn't mean that, then I accept that correction.

If I can suggest a slightly different approach, if you confine (literally and metaphorically) a group of people in a bubble where they are only subjected to a particular viewpoint, it's not surprising if they accept that viewpoint as being the only truth. If an organization that appears evil to an outside observer is the only hope they have of any form of improvement in their situation, then they will support that organization out of a lack of anything better. If the day to day experience of their lives supports what they are being told about the "evil oppressor", they won't look further for an explanation.
 
setarcos

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Bthoth said:
But that does not mean remove palestinians from palestine (genocide/apartheid).
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You'll have to elaborate. What do you mean remove all Palestinians from Palestine?
Bthoth said:
The part that sickens me, is Jews all over the world are not just against israel's actions but are being condemned for what israel is doing just because israel claims to be a jewish state.
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Wasn't Israel established to be a Jewish state? The part that sickens me is that Israel is being condemned for responding to not just an attack, but an attack whose methods deliberately embrace sick and inhumane treatment of their enemies. An ideology which uses/abuses its own people as forced human shields in order to maximize civilian casualties as a tool of war. Imagine fighting an enemy that does that and who has hostages-at least the ones still alive that weren't murdered initially? Is their anything you could do right in response?
Imagine if someone came into your house, even if that house is perceived to not be rightfully yours, and they raped and murdered your daughters or sons then held an innocent bystander in front of them as a shield while shooting at you all while also holding the rest of your family hostage in their van outside, which from all current evidence and rhetoric from them you determine that those hostages will probably meet the same fate if you don't do something. What would you do? Negotiate? They don't want to negotiate. Their publicly stated goal is to kill all your family. Do you shoot back in self defense knowing you might hit the bystander, an event made all the more likely by the intruders behavior? Do you try and save the hostages? What action could you possibly take that wouldn't be condemned somehow for unintended consequences?
 
setarcos

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
Alien826 said:
"Who they are" suggested a kind of overall condemnation of the Palestinians. If you didn't mean that, then I accept that correction.
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If the Palestinian people, as a people, embrace the purposefully inhumane and perverted aggression like Hamas demonstrated as a good thing - something that I noticed many of the Palestinian demonstrators here in the states have publicly said - then they should be condemned as a people. Personally I believe those are only the mentally corrupted and/or ignorant Palestinians that do that in spite of what the Palestinians as a whole believe. Personally I believe the Palestinians generally are a good people that want what the rest of civil society want. I have to hope that anyway because to have a whole people embrace that kind of sickness thinking its a path to a better life boggles my mind.
What do we end with if we take away our humanity in order to prove the worth of our lives?
 
rocala

rocala

Well-Known Member
icehorse said:
But what I notice in your summary history is a lack of Muslim interference in this history and that's also clearly a mistake.
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The main point of my summary was to show the amount of outside interference and influence there was in the formation of Israel, not its post-formation situation. Many say that Israel is the product of outside interference. So what Muslim interference in this formation are you referring to?

The second point was that through no fault of their own the Palestinian people got a pretty rough deal. Until we can remedy that, the likelihood of Hamas and similar groups, remaining part of the situation is likely to stay.
 
L

Little Dragon

Well-Known Member
icehorse said:
They could have taken in refugees. They could have eliminated Hamas. Or at least they could have participated in making sure Hamas wasn't supplied with rockets.

Oh right, the evil West :rolleyes:
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The west is beyond evil my cold equine friend. Did you not know? As for your what ifs. They have nothing to do with my hypothetical question which was again.

Should Israel operate the same bombing campaign on Israeli cities if Hamas were hiding there instead of in Gaza?
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
rocala said:
The main point of my summary was to show the amount of outside interference and influence there was in the formation of Israel, not its post-formation situation. Many say that Israel is the product of outside interference. So what Muslim interference in this formation are you referring to?
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Israel was formed, then re-formed, then re-re-formed and on and on. And all of these re-formations were reactions to Muslims.

rocala said:
The second point was that through no fault of their own the Palestinian people got a pretty rough deal. Until we can remedy that, the likelihood of Hamas and similar groups, remaining part of the situation is likely to stay.
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Over the years Palestinians have been offered all sorts of different land partitions and two state solutions, and Palestinians have rejected them all. I think it's inaccurate to say that they have no fault in today's situation.
 
icehorse

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Little Dragon said:
Should Israel operate the same bombing campaign on Israeli cities if Hamas were hiding there instead of in Gaza?
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Stay calm man, we're trying to solve big problems here :)

Your question is nonsensical. I think I can see what you're trying to get at, but as it stands your thought experiment is ill formed.

War sucks. Civilians get killed.

In WWII, the Germans killed English civilians. In that same war, the Brits killed far, far, far more German civilians. I don't know precisely, but let's say that 50 times more German civilians were killed. Were Britian's actions wrong?
 
L

Little Dragon

Well-Known Member
icehorse said:
In WWII, the Germans killed English civilians. In that same war, the Brits killed far, far, far more German civilians. I don't know precisely, but let's say that 50 times more German civilians were killed. Were Britian's actions wrong?
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Gaza is not a nation state. So your analogy is poor.
 
setarcos

setarcos

The hopeful or the hopeless?
rocala said:
Do you see the pattern forming? Whoever is to blame I think it unbelievably unfair to blame the Palestinians. Yet we do. Equally unfair is this habit of Western armchair politicians, we have some on RF, to decide who should become refugees, always Palestinians please note, and whose country we send them to. This is not a typical response though.
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Should we then blame the Israelis then? The area has been conquered and reconquered throughout millennia. The first people to inhabit the area weren't Arabs and certainly weren't Muslims since Judaism arose in the eastern Mediterranean region 2,000 years before the common era whereas Islam began around the 7th century CE.
From what I'm reading the establishment of a "Palestinian identity" in its contemporary sense didn't start until the 1960's. Prior to this there was no "Palestinian nationalism" such that we see today. What began to arise wasn't a sense of nationalism but a sense of social/religious identity with "overlapping identities", with some or many expressing loyalties to villages, regions, a projected nation of Palestine, and alternative of inclusion in a Greater Syria, an Arab national project, as well as to Islam." "Local pratriotism could not yet be described as nation-state nationalism."
So...if the elimination of Israel as a state is based in part on religious affiliations but Judaism existed millennia before Islam in the area then why do Palestinians have any more right to the region than Jews?
I fully admit I'm no expert in this area and am only trying to make sense of the disputes origins.
 
L

Little Dragon

Well-Known Member
icehorse said:
Hamas governs Gaza. There are the military and there are civilians on both sides of the conflict. Seems like a strong comparison to me.
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Secondly, Israel has a powerful military, replete with tanks and F16s and cruise missiles etc, Hamas does not. The imbalance demands that the more powerful actor assume the most responsibility.
 
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