Have the Rich Gone to War Against the Poor and Middle Class in America?

[Storm]

Public school is free (and I know that welfare provides enough for the minor costs - schools will even help out when students cannot pay most of these minor costs). I find that a lot of families on welfare consist of drop-outs.

You are assuming that I am a selfish person. Much appreciated. I think I can handle the extra taxes and price raises... I wasn't even considering myself in this situation. I was thinking that the people that think they need minimum wage will ultimately not benefit from it because of those things.

Also, personally, if the only place I could get a job was with a $2 per hour pay, I would go set up a fruit stand on the side of the road or dance on a street corner (not like that) and I'm sure I'd be making more. There are very dumb people out there in the world but you're falsely assuming that people will bust their butts off for that pay. They will find another way to make money because they have to. That kind of money cannot support them. And so, the company will have to raise its wages to encourage workers to come back.

It doesn't work. There are always people desperate enough to let themselves be exploited.

 

[dust1n]

Public school is free (and I know that welfare provides enough for the minor costs - schools will even help out when students cannot pay most of these minor costs). I find that a lot of families on welfare consist of drop-outs.

You are assuming that I am a selfish person. Much appreciated. I think I can handle the extra taxes and price raises... I wasn't even considering myself in this situation. I was thinking that the people that think they need minimum wage will ultimately not benefit from it because of those things.

Also, personally, if the only place I could get a job was with a $2 per hour pay, I would go set up a fruit stand on the side of the road or dance on a street corner (not like that) and I'm sure I'd be making more. There are very dumb people out there in the world but you're falsely assuming that people will bust their butts off for that pay. They will find another way to make money because they have to. That kind of money cannot support them. And so, the company will have to raise its wages to encourage workers to come back.

There are people who will work however low possible the wage is, even if it's not enough to live off of. Minimum wage is not a living wage, people still work it. Workers in Indonesia work for 13 cents a day. It's not enough to actually live off of, but they still work because it's better than nothing. Again, I'm sure they would love to 'find another way to make money', but there isn't another way, or the opportunities are far and in between.


Again, I ask, miss Libertarian, where does privatization stop? Where is the line drawn?

 

[no-body]

It is such an ignorant assumption to say that people that don't agree with welfare are some kind of selfish evil being or something. It's really ridiculous actually. Could it not just be that we don't think it is the GOVERNMENT'S JOB?

Not evil but like most libertarian ideology, selfish? absolutely. You got yours and you want to keep it while you put on the blinders and ignore the roads, police, military etc and all the millions of other things taxes and government offer. As for welfare if you say things like poor people are "lazy" then you have little understanding of why we have social programs. It may not be the governments job if the people don't want it but thankfully we live in a pretty advanced society where at least in the case of altruism for your fellow man the noble outrank the greed-heads.

 

[dust1n]

But like I said, minimum wage just raises prices and decreases the amount of jobs

Price Responses to Minimum Wage Increases
Using a variety of government and private datasets, Aaronson and French show that prices do in fact rise in response to a minimum wage increase. Aaronson (2001) finds that minimum wage increases tend to raise prices. The magnitude and timing of these price increases is striking. Within three months of a wage hike, Aaronson finds that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage resulted in a 0.4–0.7 percent increase in restaurant prices. Much of the increase occurred within the first month of the wage hike. In the fast food sector, prices rise 1.5 percent in response to a 10 percent increase.



Aaronson, French, and MacDonald (2004) utilize store-level Consumer Price Index (CPI) data generated by the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) to separate firms by their relative use of low-skill, entry-level employment. A wage hike will particularly affect those firms employing a higher percentage of teenagers and other low-skilled employees. Using this new data, the authors find further evidence that prices rise following a wage hike. Tellingly, they also find that in areas where a greater number of employees earned the minimum wage, the price increases are larger than the overall results....


Output Prices and the Minimum Wage | EPI Study

 

[Kathryn]

I have spent tons of time applying for jobs at www.indianacareerconnect.com (the new and "improved" unemployment office of the state of Indiana).
I have applied in person to every place that would accept my application and/or resume in a 50 mile radius.

Of course, I had to restart with the 50 mile radius after moving from Auburn to Lagrange. But I have managed it in the five weeks we have been here.

I also do follow ups on the applications and resumes that I have put in, not to mention following up on the internet applications and the apps through the unemployment office...Excuse me...unemployment website.

I know, just to damn lazy to get a job....

Well, Mestemia, the unemployment rate in LaGrange, IN is 14.1 percent, so your fruitless search doesn't surprise me. Sorry to hear you're having trouble. Why on earth did you move to that area? The unemployment rate in Indiana in general is about 9 percent so it seems you have moved to a very depressed part of the state.

The unemployment rate where I live is 7 percent. In North Dakota it 4.2. Can you move somewhere else?

Unemployment Rates for States

I can see why people were asking, though, about your family situation and your housing. My brother is "chronically unemployed." He has been claiming for the past 10 years that he is unable to find a job - even though he is a college educated, healthy, 38 year old white guy. However, his wife has a good job, and always has, with a great benefits package, and they live in a very nice home in the suburbs of Houston. So his "efforts" at finding the "perfect job" (one that doesn't really require him to actually WORK), are somewhat hampered by his comfort level.

Why his wife puts up with that, I will never know. But he's her problem, not mine.

I worked in the recruiting and professional placement field for many years. It doesn't matter how spiffy your resume is, or how many college degrees you have (unless of course, a specific degree is required for the job), if you don't interview well.

Have you considered registering with staffing companies and professional recruiters?

 

[Kathryn]

And, Rick and Kathryn, suffice to say you guys should learn about the poor in this country before making all kinds of assumptions about them (and, Kathryn, that means learning about them, not spouting off about how you were poor once).

How do you suggest one goes about "learning about the poor of this country?"

Don't forget - for most of my adult life (after I got out of poverty myself) I've volunteered and taught life skill classes to people who are trying to break that cycle of poverty and better their lives. So even though I am no longer poor, and have gotten out of the dysfunctionality that so often leads to poverty, I am in regular contact with many people who ARE struggling with poverty.

In fact, just last night I led a workshop on budgeting and managing money within a very tight budget, at a predominately African American church in a very poor part of town. Most of the participants are struggling with poverty and unemployment. The workshop was very well attended and the audience was FANTASTIC - I am still on an emotional high from the experience. I absolutely LOVE being able to help people who are willing to help themselves.

And, you know what they say - the best teacher is experience.

My ex husband's family was from the ghetto. I mean GHETTO. They are the stereotypical ghetto bunch - illegitimate babies, drugs, one shack up lover after another, alcohol, chronic unemployment - and most of their neighbors live the same dysfunctional lifestyles.

My exhusband somehow or other was born with a work ethic and drive to get out of that vicious cycle of poverty. He did so - to his credit. The rest of his family is to this day wallowing in the same cesspool, making the same horrible and self destructive choices.

He does have two nieces who also managed to break that cycle and who have moved away, gotten degrees and good jobs, and are now raising healthy families far from their sad origins. Kudos to them!

So - I don't think I qualify as a "snob." If I was such a snob, the classes I teach wouldn't be so well attended by "the poor." And I don't go easy on people when I teach these classes. A large chunk of the class time focuses on attitude and taking responsibility for your own choices - so that you can move forward without repeating the same mistakes.

After the class last night, at least thirty strangers crowded around me to hug me before I left. Ask them if I'm a "snob."

 

[Reverend Rick]

Price Responses to Minimum Wage Increases
Using a variety of government and private datasets, Aaronson and French show that prices do in fact rise in response to a minimum wage increase. Aaronson (2001) finds that minimum wage increases tend to raise prices. The magnitude and timing of these price increases is striking. Within three months of a wage hike, Aaronson finds that a 10 percent increase in the minimum wage resulted in a 0.4–0.7 percent increase in restaurant prices. Much of the increase occurred within the first month of the wage hike. In the fast food sector, prices rise 1.5 percent in response to a 10 percent increase.



Aaronson, French, and MacDonald (2004) utilize store-level Consumer Price Index (CPI) data generated by the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) to separate firms by their relative use of low-skill, entry-level employment. A wage hike will particularly affect those firms employing a higher percentage of teenagers and other low-skilled employees. Using this new data, the authors find further evidence that prices rise following a wage hike. Tellingly, they also find that in areas where a greater number of employees earned the minimum wage, the price increases are larger than the overall results....


Output Prices and the Minimum Wage | EPI Study

Any time the price of materials or labor goes up, a company has to raise their prices. This is why raising the minimum wage does little to improve the workers quality of life.

Actually it has a reverse effect. Many times an employer will keep their payroll at the same level and just schedule less hours while expecting more work from each employee.

What I take issue to is why do people assume that a minimum wage job by design would pay you enough to live? This is an entry level position for teenagers and retired folks.

If you don't live at home with your parents or have your home paid for, minimum wage is not going to sustain you in most cases.

What we need to examine is why a person only qualifies for a minimum wage job? Perhaps they should have focused on acquiring a trade or an education before striking out on their own.

 

[Troublemane]

“There’s class warfare, all right, but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.” -- Warren Buffet

Is Buffet right? Have the rich gone to war against the other social classes in America? Why or why not?

I agree with Buffet and certain economists that what we have in America today is "socialism for the rich". Moreover, we are seeing a massive transfer of wealth out of the middle class and into the pockets of the wealthy. Consequently, the middle class is being destroyed.

It seems to me that the old fashioned sense of social responsibility which once might have been found motivating some wealthy individuals in this country is largely gone now and replaced by a sense that of us versus them. Today's rich no longer care about the country -- if they ever did -- and instead care only about their own interests. Perhaps this is a result of the "Me generation" coming into its own.

Hey, check out the statistics of percentage of people in the US with certain income levels, sometime. I think that may answer the question, as I dont believe there is anyone to make war on anymore.

The top 1% make over 200k per year. But to get higher you have to go to the top 0.1%, who make over 250k per year. Then the top 0.01% who make over 1 million per year. And teh top 400 people who are all billionaires.

There is no middle ground! LoL! It goes from eh...moderately wealthy to SUPER RICH! There is no medium rich! The disparity is truly astounding!

 

[Troublemane]

Why his wife puts up with that, I will never know. But he's her problem, not mine.

Because people adjust to whatever situation they are in, and they find it easier to accept it than to try and change it.

 

[Kathryn]

Even though unemployment is relatively low in my area (7 percent), I know that there are probably 10 people out there lined up to take my job if I get fired.

I also know that if the company I work for starts laying people off, they will start with the people who give them the least return on their investment.

That's why I make certain that I am the best employee I can be. I don't take all my sick days, I'm dependable, positive, professional, courteous with both coworkers and customers, and when I'm at work, I'm working. I'm not surfing the internet, texting on my phone, or I'Ming people. I make sure that I'm in the 90th percentile or above when it comes to production.

Sometimes I have to do things I don't enjoy. I have to put together what I consider useless reports, for instance. Sometimes I have to stay late to get these done, which is frustrating. Sometimes I come in to work with a headache when I would really rather be home - and I have the sick days to take. I have to put up with a boss who is far - farrrrrrrr - from ideal, and who drives me absolutely crazy sometimes. And some of the customers - augh!

This isn't easy, but I value my job - and I appreciate it, especially in this economy.

I'm not saying I won't ever get laid off - it could happen. But my goal in that case is to be the one turning off the lights.

By the way, I don't have a college degree - but every job I've had in the past 10 years either required a degree or strongly preferred a person with a degree. I've worried about it in every interview (I moved twice in that time frame and had to find a new job in a new area) but it's never even come up, even though it's clear on my resume that I did not finish college.

The only thing that qualifies me for the good jobs I've had over the years is my past production - often in totally unrelated fields to the one I've been applying in.

Like I said, I could get laid off at any time - it could happen today for all I know. But the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior, right?

I swear to you, if I lost my job today, tomorrow I would be out on someone's place digging a ditch or putting up a fence - or cleaning houses. I ain't too proud.

 

[Troublemane]

Work is slow at my company, which is why I am home on RF right now.

Luckily I have been saving up copper (im an electrician), and copper prices are a bit higher due to the earthquake in Chile. So, while I am home, I am stripping some copper and taking it in. Most of the guys I work with turn theirs in as soon as they get it, but I never did--I figured it was extra, not part of my budget, so I just stowed it under the house. Now times are tough, and copper prices are high, I am getting it out and selling it.

Saving money is good, but you can only save when times are good! The american habit is to spend money you dont have even when times are GOOD! To me thats a habit that needs to be broken!

 

[Magic Man]

Spoken like someone who doesn't live in the really real world.
I do not recieve any unemployment benefits.
Yet I have been seven months looking for a job, any job and guess what?
There aren't any jobs out there.

My apologies for not being related to the high ups or the staff members who do the hiring.
Guess my lazy arse should be out there sucking up so that someone can use their power to slip me into a job.

Actually, that has not been working out so well either.

So anyway, when you decide to come back to the really real world....

I got laid off last year. I worked part-time at a retail store for over a year while looking for something else. I studied computers to try to get into that field, and I finally got an opportunity about a month ago only because of a friend. If it hadn't been for this friend, I would still be out of work over a year later, even though I applied to every job I might be suited for.

I've had about 10 different jobs in my life. I only got one of them without knowing somebody who worked there to help me get in.

 

[Magic Man]

Why should people try to get off welfare? What is the incentive?

Do you not understand how much you get from welfare programs? I guess not, since your view of the world is obviously not constrained by facts. In most places, as a single male, you'd get maybe $400 to live on for the month. I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone who would want to live on that kind of money.

 

[Magic Man]

How do you suggest one goes about "learning about the poor of this country?"

Maybe go meet some, or you can just read about poverty. I just read one book that's very good that is directed towards teachers and social workers on poverty, middle class, and wealth by a woman who is a teacher, but who started researching the issue about 25 years ago, and started doing presentations on it upon request. She has some very good and interesting thing to say about the differences between, for instance, generational and situational poverty, and the different mindsets and cultural aspects to the different classes.

Anyway, there are a lot of resources out there to learn about the poor, and realize that your experiences aren't going to be representative of the majority.

 

[McBell]

. In most places, as a single male, you'd get maybe $400 to live on for the month. I don't know about you, but I don't know anyone who would want to live on that kind of money.

where the hell are you talking about?!
In springfield you only get $45 a month in cash (if you qualify) and $85 a month in stamps.
Here in Indiana you get $45 a month and $98 in stamps.

 

[Storm]

where the hell are you talking about?!
In springfield you only get $45 a month in cash (if you qualify) and $85 a month in stamps.
Here in Indiana you get $45 a month and $98 in stamps.

It varies by state. Here in Oregon, single adults aren't eligible for cash assistance at all, only custodial parents of minor children. Food stamps are a bit more generous, though, around $230/ month for a single person with no other income.

 

[McBell]

Well, Mestemia, the unemployment rate in LaGrange, IN is 14.1 percent, so your fruitless search doesn't surprise me. Sorry to hear you're having trouble. Why on earth did you move to that area? The unemployment rate in Indiana in general is about 9 percent so it seems you have moved to a very depressed part of the state.

I had no choice.
It was either move to Lagrange or live on the streets with my wife and daughter.

The unemployment rate where I live is 7 percent. In North Dakota it 4.2. Can you move somewhere else?

If I can get the money and or help moving, yes I would relocate.
But since I will not be getting a "refund" check this year....

Unemployment Rates for States

I can see why people were asking, though, about your family situation and your housing. My brother is "chronically unemployed." He has been claiming for the past 10 years that he is unable to find a job - even though he is a college educated, healthy, 38 year old white guy. However, his wife has a good job, and always has, with a great benefits package, and they live in a very nice home in the suburbs of Houston. So his "efforts" at finding the "perfect job" (one that doesn't really require him to actually WORK), are somewhat hampered by his comfort level.

I have active Crohn's Disease.
However, since I have not seen a doctor for it in over five years, I need not put it on my application.
But since no one is actively hiring....

I worked in the recruiting and professional placement field for many years. It doesn't matter how spiffy your resume is, or how many college degrees you have (unless of course, a specific degree is required for the job), if you don't interview well.

I do not know how well I interview.
IF I can get calle din for one, I will let you know.

Have you considered registering with staffing companies and professional recruiters?

I have worked for several temp services in my time.
I have always scored above average on all their tests.
I am also "registered" (for lack of a better term) with most of them in this area.
In fact, the only ones I am not "registered" with are the ones like for CNAs, LPNs, RNs, etc.

One of my limitations is that we only have one vehicle.
My wife works third shift.

 

[McBell]

It varies by state. Here in Oregon, single adults aren't eligible for cash assistance at all, only custodial parents of minor children. Food stamps are a bit more generous, though, around $230/ month for a single person with no other income.

When I lived in West Virginia it was $100 cash. period.
AND you had to show up and work to earn it.
I loved it.
Got to get out and meet people, learned some skills I did not have before.
I wish that the other states would implement something along those lines.

Community service for welfare....

 

[Storm]

When I lived in West Virginia it was $100 cash. period.
AND you had to show up and work to earn it.
I loved it.
Got to get out and meet people, learned some skills I did not have before.
I wish that the other states would implement something along those lines.

Community service for welfare....

Talk about exploitation. Let's do the math: how many hours a week did you have to work for your $100?

 

[Magic Man]

where the hell are you talking about?!
In springfield you only get $45 a month in cash (if you qualify) and $85 a month in stamps.
Here in Indiana you get $45 a month and $98 in stamps.

I've seen many different numbers. I might have them a bit mixed up, but in some states, it's around $300-400. The main point is that even if it's that high, who the hell would want to live on that?