Heaven is a Police State

[Thief]

We are just capacitors of a spirit's passage.
And imagination makes up the rest.

I like that too

but in the scheme of life
do you not believe in superlatives?

 

[`mud]

Ahh the `scheme` of Life and it's Stuff !
You trust a kindred and powerful ruler,
I trust Life and it's creations as they come,
each will come of their own evolution,
and will go on from there, after death.

 

[cataway]

Ahh the `scheme` of Life and it's Stuff !
You trust a kindred and powerful ruler,
I trust Life and it's creations as they come,
each will come of their own evolution,
and will go on from there, after death.

at your death someone will either dig a hole and drop you into it or slip your dead body into a oven and burn you till you are ash. then if you are deemed worthy and the time arrives. a resurrection

 

[`mud]

On a Brahman journey to Nirvana and beyond into the All

Or sitting on my deck !

 

[Muffled]

God is in charge
the angels carry swords

and you will show up at the gate.....

expecting freedom?

I believe you are in error. It is not a police state because no-one there is capable of ding evil.

I believe God only bothers people there when necessary. Otherwise people are simply free to do what they want since there is no ability to do any evil.

I believe there are no gates in Heaven. This is due to the fact that people sometimes confuse the New Jerusalem with Heaven. They are two different things.

I believe there are no angels carrying swords in Heaven.

 

[Muffled]

In my understanding only those who reach enlightenment or salvation will be able to enter in to heaven and in my current understanding heaven is a peaceful dimension

I do not believe that is the case as to entry.

My experience with Heaven was that it was a peaceful place.

 

[Muffled]

I've been posting for years.....
the peace of heaven is guarded

and so I agree

they don't let everyone in

I believe there are those who will require further punishment for their actions and Heaven does not provide that.

 

[Thief]

I believe there are those who will require further punishment for their actions and Heaven does not provide that.

no wrath of God?

 

[Thief]

was it not God's Favored that led the rebellion?

ooops!

sword play followed

 

[Spirit of Light]

I do not believe that is the case as to entry.

My experience with Heaven was that it was a peaceful place.

Because of we are on different wisdom level, we will have different understanding of how heaven is.

 

[halbhh]

'Ineffable' compared with anything we can envisage from sense-impressions in this material world or descriptors lifted from things of sense (i.e. 'sight', 'sound', 'touch', 'mental abstraction'), yes; because it is the direct apprehension of the Essence of the One Immaterial Deity who is regarded by us as "Being Itself" - as the Tetragrammaton (the Divine Name revealed to Moses on Mount Sinai according to the Torah) implies: YHWH "I AM THAT I AM / I AM WHO IS":


Catechism of the Catholic Church

206 In revealing his mysterious name, YHWH ("I AM HE WHO IS", "I AM WHO AM" or "I AM WHO I AM"), God says who he is and by what name he is to be called. This divine name is mysterious just as God is mystery. It is at once a name revealed and something like the refusal of a name, and hence it better expresses God as what he is - infinitely above everything that we can understand or say: he is the "hidden God", his name is ineffable​

'Heaven' is unmediated communion and absorption of the 'soul' in this 'inexpressible' Reality we generally call "God":


Catechism of the Catholic Church - Our vocation to beatitude

Beatitude makes us "partakers of the divine nature" and of eternal life.21 With beatitude, man enters into the glory of Christ22 and into the joy of the Trinitarian life.


1722 Such beatitude surpasses the understanding and powers of man. It comes from an entirely free gift of God: whence it is called supernatural, as is the grace that disposes man to enter into the divine joy.

"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." It is true, because of the greatness and inexpressible glory of God, that "man shall not see me and live," for the Father cannot be grasped. But because of God's love and goodness toward us, and because he can do all things, he goes so far as to grant those who love him the privilege of seeing him. . . . For "what is impossible for men is possible for God." (St. Irenaeus (c. 120- c. 200), Adv. haeres. 4,20,5G 7/1,1034-1035).​

With all due respect, I honestly don't understand what you mean in saying this. How am I assuming a 'playground'?

In Catholic doctrine, heaven is a state of supreme beatitude ("bliss") in which souls are 'liberated' from even the very memory of sin, inordinate cravings and attachments, suffering, ignorance and restless unfulfilment.

The 'beatified' in heaven are considered to have direct, unmediated apprehension and enjoyment of the Essence of God, which is conveyed through a range of allusive 'images' and 'metaphors' that are intended to give people some limited sense of a superessential reality which is ultimately beyond human cognition and sense-perceptions altogether:

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, what God has prepared for them that love him" (1 Corinthians 2:9)

If you look beyond the 'form' in which the dogma of heaven is often presented to the 'substance' - as understood by Christian theologians and in the church's catechetical tradition - I imagine one would likely cease viewing it in corporeal, temporal terms as a theocratic 'penal system' / 'police state' watched over by a big old fella in a grey beard surrounded by little cherub angels dancing on clouds and wielding fiery swords (that isn't what we believe).

Good wording. So I don't feel I need to work to compose a better answer. I like things I've read in my limited reading in the Catholic catechism, but didn't know they had gotten to this level. Appreciate your work!

 

[halbhh]

Ill pass. I don't like "might is right" and ruling by the swords. Its peace and love or I dont want to be there (what does god need with armed guards, anyways?)

Good news on that. The whole issue doesn't exist, because the pre selection is complete already: 27Nothing impure will ever enter it...

Only those that love will be able to ever enter.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Good news on that. The whole issue doesn't exist, because the pre selection is complete already: 27Nothing impure will ever enter it...

Only those that love will be able to ever enter.

I would find that grossly unfair to those who grew up to hate because they were taught hate as children. Those who's pains and abuse manifested into anger and bitterness. Bullys often become bullys. If anything, they need a love shown to them they've never had before instead of more pain.

 

[halbhh]

I would find that grossly unfair to those who grew up to hate because they were taught hate as children. Those who's pains and abuse manifested into anger and bitterness. Bullys often become bullys. If anything, they need a love shown to them they've never had before instead of more pain.

Though we are born with the ability, the bigger kind of Love is more an outcome.

Even an outcome often of suffering and change, that bigger kind of Love that is more than just love for family or love for a circle of a few friends we like only.

"God resists the proud, but gives Grace (help, aid, opportunities) to the humble."

My explanation might fall short, but these are better words --

This Love:

1“Come, all you who are thirsty,
come to the waters;
and you who have no money,
come, buy and eat!
Come, buy wine and milk
without money and without cost.

2Why spend money on what is not bread,
and your labor on what does not satisfy?
Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good,
and you will delight in the richest of fare.

3Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.
...
6Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.

7Let the wicked forsake their ways
and the unrighteous their thoughts.
Let them turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on them,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.

9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

10As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.

12You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
13Instead of the thornbush will grow the juniper,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the Lord’s renown,
for an everlasting sign,
that will endure forever.”
Isaiah 55 NIV

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Though we are born with the ability, the bigger kind of Love is more an outcome.

Even an outcome often of suffering and change, that bigger kind of Love that is more than just love for family or love for a circle of a few friends we like only.

I cannot stand with any god who wpuld condemn Frankenstein's Creature. He was only guilty of being created and being hated. He hated because he was hated and feared. If a god could hold such a person eternally guilty for reacting in a way that reflected how he was treated by others, that is a god not worthy of my respect.

 

[Faithofchristian]

God is in charge
the angels carry swords

and you will show up at the gate.....

expecting freedom?

As to where do you get Angels carry swords ?
And heaven being a police state?

 

[Lostsouldee]

Yes, your God condemns people on earth based on thought crime so I can assume heaven would be like a totalitarian dictatorship.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Yes, your God condemns people on earth based on thought crime so I can assume heaven would be like a totalitarian dictatorship.

That's definitely absolutely positively amazing and to say funny.

 

[VoidoftheSun]

God is in charge
the angels carry swords

and you will show up at the gate.....

expecting freedom?

Jannah (paradise, the end attainment) is the absence of Dunya (manifest reality, the material world).

Aka, anything that resembles this universe or this state of being is not heaven.

 

[DKH]

Heaven is a police state.

I disagree! So, to begin (with my counter argument) let's define: What is a police state?


a political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures (Merriam-Webster Dictionary).


Thus, breaking down this definition: What is meant by a repressive government?


One that restricts people's freedom and controls them by using force (Collins English Dictionary).


Hence, it is my opinion that the Kingdom of Heaven does restrict the freedom of the angels (to do whatever they want to) and could use force to prevent such actions that are contrary to the regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to known legal procedures of the Kingdom of Heaven…Where, these known legal procedures are outlined through-out the bible. Also, 1Chron. 29:11-12, 2Chron. 20:6, Ps. 103.19, Isa. 14:24 and your acknowledgement are only a few references claiming God has authority over all, including heaven. Therefore, since the regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of heaven have not been altered (in any way), since its creation, heaven is not a police state.


Thus (hypothetically), if an individual appeared at the gate of heaven, not fully knowing the rules and regulations required for entrance, they would not be permitted to enter…This would eliminate the guessing of what is happening in heaven and what isn't.


Note: Even though I have used bible verses for support, this posting is my personal opinion and should only be understood in that context.