Heaven

[Alien826]

Yes, that is the key to understanding this.... we will be very different from what we are now. For one thing, we won't have a physical body.

Once again, my thoughts are based on our not being all that different. That's it. Telling me that we will be, based on the writings of someone that I don't consider to be authoritative, is not really relevant to what I said. In the end, I am challenging a particular view of "heaven" and anything outside that is a diversion from my point.

I think you are projecting life in this world onto life in the next world.....

Yes, that's right. Or rather, addressing a particular set of beliefs as if they were true.

But your life won't be able to be terminated because the soul is immortal, so it cannot die. That's the problem.

Are you suggesting that God, who (supposedly) will be able to convert our mortality to immortality, wouldn't be able to do the reverse?

I understand that this is your fantasy heaven, but since I have beliefs I try to go with what was revealed by Baha'u'llah....

Yes, it's my fantasy heaven. Not yours, or Baha'u'llah's or anyone else's. That means that whatever I say about it is true, as far as the contents of a fantasy can be true, which is that I am correctly describing my fantasy.

Why would you want to never exist anymore? Think about it.

It's kind of "been there done that". If I've already done everything possible to me until I'm tired of it, why continue? Remember I wouldn't be conscious of not existing.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi RestlessSoul. Good evening. Respectfully, it doesn't matter what you imagine heaven to be like. The Kingdom of Yahweh is described in the Bible, and it will not be in heaven, but it will be a heavenly kingdom on this earth.

I agree that there will be a Kingdom of God on earth, but there is also a Kingdom of God in heaven.

Matthew 6:10 your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

No-one goes to heaven when they die (John 3:13). The only one that has ascended to heaven has been the Son, Yahshua, and that is because He originated from heaven. We don't originate from heaven, we originate from earth.

No, nobody originates from heaven, we all originate from earth. Jesus originated from heaven because His soul was in heaven with God before He was born in a body on this earth.

But that does not mean that nobody goes to heaven when they die. Clearly, all the souls of believers are in heaven and will continue to ascend to heaven when their physical body dies on earth.

 

[Trailblazer]

Once again, my thoughts are based on our not being all that different. That's it. Telling me that we will be, based on the writings of someone that I don't consider to be authoritative, is not really relevant to what I said. In the end, I am challenging a particular view of "heaven" and anything outside that is a diversion from my point.

Okay, fair enough.

Yes, that's right. Or rather, addressing a particular set of beliefs as if they were true.

Do you mean your own beliefs? Do you believe that life in the next world (the afterlife) will be like life in this world?

Are you suggesting that God, who (supposedly) will be able to convert our mortality to immortality, wouldn't be able to do the reverse?

No, I am not suggesting that God is not able. I am only suggesting that God is not going to do that since that would be God going back on His promises.

Yes, it's my fantasy heaven. Not yours, or Baha'u'llah's or anyone else's. That means that whatever I say about it is true, as far as the contents of a fantasy can be true, which is that I am correctly describing my fantasy.

Okay fair enough, as long as you don't expect your fantasy to become a reality.

It's kind of "been there done that". If I've already done everything possible to me until I'm tired of it, why continue? Remember I wouldn't be conscious of not existing.

That would also be no different from dying in this world and not having any afterlife at all, you would never know the difference, except that if you had an afterlife you would have an extension and be able to do all you want to do before you no longer exist.

Of course nobody knows what is actually going to happen but I think we will know more after we die. I think you will be pleasantly surprised to discover that you won't want to die again. I know that the very idea of living forever sounds daunting, but I don't believe we will be thinking that way after we die, since time as we know it on earth will not exist. We will simply exist. We won't be thinking ""Gee, when is this going to be over?" like we might think about a visit to our mother-in-law's house!

 

[cataway]

Hi RestlessSoul. Good evening. Respectfully, it doesn't matter what you imagine heaven to be like. The Kingdom of Yahweh is described in the Bible, and it will not be in heaven, but it will be a heavenly kingdom on this earth. It will be a Kingdom, thus ruled by a King, Yahshua the Messiah, who will rule over the world by Yahweh's righteous commandments. This is why I'm many times scratching my head, wondering why so few people believe in the keeping of Yahweh's commandments. This life is a practice-run for life in the Kingdom. If we don't keep His commandments in this life, why would Yahweh grant eternal life to that individual and how would they operate in a Kingdom ruled by Yahweh's Laws. No-one goes to heaven when they die (John 3:13). The only one that has ascended to heaven has been the Son, Yahshua, and that is because He originated from heaven. We don't originate from heaven, we originate from earth.

is it your understanding that the apostles of jesus did not go to heaven ?

 

[cataway]

John 3:16 is kind of silly.

God could have gave man eternal life from the beginning and there wouldn't have been any need to hang Jesus from the cross.

Why make a world where suffering exists if the only point is to escape it?

actually in the beginning Adam would of lived on and on if he had not sinned. however, he did sin and lost that opportunity

 

[Aupmanyav]

What we will be doing in our eternal spiritual life was not revealed by Baha'u'llah, and He explained why it was not revealed.

“If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station…. The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.”​

In short, skipped the question. He was a smart fellow.

 

[Truthseeker]

Personally speaking, I am not much into heaven and hell, and believe that they could be states of mind. You create your own heaven or hell on earth as per the quality of your mind and actions.

Yes, The Baha'i Faith teaches that. Heaven and hell are spiritual states of mind.

Yes, there could be heavenly and hellish dimensions after death, and if so, one will obviously attract the one that corresponds to the mind's quality and karma. But I don't believe that they are of an eternal nature due to the finite nature of karma.

Karma could be infinite or finite? I didn't know that there was such a distinction.

 

[ajay0]

Yes, The Baha'i Faith teaches that. Heaven and hell are spiritual states of mind.

Karma could be infinite or finite? I didn't know that there was such a distinction.

Karma means thoughts , words and actions under the influence of volition. And considering the short duration of a life, obviously all karma in the form of thoughts, words and actions would be finite.

Hence there is no eternal heaven or hell, as there is no infinite positive karma or negative karmas.

In the Hindu and Buddhist versions, one goes to heaven or hellish dimensions on account of the positive or negative karmas one has performed with mathematical precision. But these are of a temporary duration and not permanent.

There is no eternal hell-fire to be petrified of.

Since the core of each soul is considered to be divine and Brahman or pure consciousness, the idea of eternal hell-fire is incompatible with the soul on account of its innate divinity.

Sins for this reason are considered to be errors out of ignorance.

 

[Alien826]

Do you mean your own beliefs? Do you believe that life in the next world (the afterlife) will be like life in this world?

My own belief is that physical death is the end.

Okay fair enough, as long as you don't expect your fantasy to become a reality.

Of course not. It's a fantasy.

That would also be no different from dying in this world and not having any afterlife at all, you would never know the difference, except that if you had an afterlife you would have an extension and be able to do all you want to do before you no longer exist.

That would be the difference. I would have that extension.

Of course nobody knows what is actually going to happen but I think we will know more after we die. I think you will be pleasantly surprised to discover that you won't want to die again. I know that the very idea of living forever sounds daunting, but I don't believe we will be thinking that way after we die, since time as we know it on earth will not exist. We will simply exist. We won't be thinking ""Gee, when is this going to be over?" like we might think about a visit to our mother-in-law's house!

Who knows indeed! Maybe we will meet there and you can say "I told you so!"

 

[Trailblazer]

Who knows indeed! Maybe we will meet there and you can say "I told you so!"

I sure hope so. Heaven would not be Heaven without my friends!

 

[CharmingOwl]

I think inside of a Christian heaven you need to keep your worldly desires in order to benefit from their fulfillment. Dharmic Moksha is eternal bliss without desires which seems more consistent in some ways, but that is because the philosophies of Dharmic practices teach about liberation from desires and ego. If the bible taught more ascetism and ego-destroying things it would probably be more suited to the kind of afterlife they promise for their followers.

To me it seems like such a mismatch. Because if you are Christian and go to a place where all your desires are fulfilled, what if your desires are things that are considered sins in Christianity? You want to have a harem or engage in debauchery? Too bad. It seems paradoxical that the virtuous life you need to live to get to the Christian heaven deprives you of the pleasures you may want or expect in the afterlife.

 

[cataway]

No, of course you have not seen any dead physical bodies walking around in graveyards...
Since you were a Christian for most of your life, don't you know that the resurrection of dead bodies from their graves is supposed to occur on Judgment Day which is when Christ returns? Shame on you (just kidding. )

The Baha'i Faith has a completely different take on the resurrection of the dead although, like Christians, we believe it will occur on The Day of Judgment

The Great Resurrection ​

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—221

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.​

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …​

​

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …​

​

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of 222 the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.​

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222

you likely have not figured out yet that The Day of Judgment is well after the Day of Resurrection,

Romans 6:7​

"For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin."
which means after the Resurrection a person is without sin.

"

 

[cataway]

No, it is those who have sight trying to lead the blind, which is a lost cause.

Matthew 15:14​

Let them be. Blind guides is what they are. If, then, a blind man guides a blind man, both will fall into a pit.”

Luke 6:39​

Then he also told them an illustration: “A blind man cannot guide a blind man, can he? Both will fall into a pit, will they not?

 

[Trailblazer]

you likely have not figured out yet that The Day of Judgment is well after the Day of Resurrection,

Romans 6:7​

"For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin."
which means after the Resurrection a person is without sin."

The Day of Resurrection is when Christ returns and believers are spiritually resurrected. Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God.

The Day of Judgment comes after Christ returns. It is called the Day of Judgment because by acceptance or rejection of Christ believers are judged. When Christ returns the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him and gain Eternal Life. The goats reject Christ when He returns and thus consign themselves to deprivation and loss of the Eternal Life.

The Day of Judgment​

Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—

… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.​

The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.

In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220

 

[cataway]

The Day of Resurrection is when Christ returns and believers are spiritually resurrected. Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life. The raising of the dead means the spiritual awakening of those who are asleep in the graves of ignorance, heedlessness and lust. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God.

The Day of Judgment comes after Christ returns. It is called the Day of Judgment because by acceptance or rejection of Christ believers are judged. When Christ returns the sheep are separated from the goats, for the sheep know the voice of the Good Shepherd and follow Him and gain Eternal Life. The goats reject Christ when He returns and thus consign themselves to deprivation and loss of the Eternal Life.

The Day of Judgment​

Christ spoke much in parables about a great Day of Judgment when “the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father … and … shall reward every man according to his works” (Matt. xvi, 27). He compares this Day to the time of harvest, when the tares are burned and the wheat gathered into barns:—

… so shall it be in the end of this world [consummation of the age]. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father.—Matt. xiii, 40–43.​

The phrase “end of the world” used in the Authorized Version of the Bible in this and similar passages has led many to suppose that when the Day of Judgment comes, the earth will suddenly be destroyed, but this is evidently a mistake. The true translation of the phrase appears to be “the consummation or end of the age.” Christ teaches that the Kingdom of the Father is to be established on earth, as well as in heaven. He teaches us to pray: “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.” In the parable of the Vineyard, when the Father, the Lord of the Vineyard, comes to destroy the wicked husbandmen, He does not destroy the vineyard (the world) also, but lets it out to other husbandmen, who will render Him the fruits in their season. The earth is not to be destroyed, but to be renewed and regenerated. Christ speaks of that day on another occasion as “the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” St. Peter speaks of it as “the times of refreshing,” “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.” The Day of Judgment of which Christ speaks is evidently identical with the coming of the Lord of Hosts, the Father, which was prophesied by Isaiah and the other Old Testament prophets; a time of terrible punishment for the wicked, but a time in which justice shall be established and righteousness rule, on earth as in heaven.

In the Bahá’í interpretation, the coming of each Manifestation of God is a Day of Judgment, but the coming of the supreme Manifestation of Bahá’u’lláh is the great Day of Judgment for the world cycle in which we are living. The trumpet blast of which Christ and Muhammad and many other prophets speak is the call of the Manifestation, which is sounded for all who are in heaven and on earth—the embodied and the disembodied. The meeting with God, through His Manifestation, is, for those who desire to meet Him, the gateway to the Paradise of knowing and loving Him, and living in love with all His creatures. Those, on the other hand, who prefer their own way to God’s way, as revealed by the Manifestation, thereby consign themselves to the hell of selfishness, error and enmity.

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220

nope,you have been led astray. a story has been told to you and you were likely told not to think for yourself .just believe what you are being told

 

[Trailblazer]

nope,you have been led astray. a story has been told to you and you were likely told not to think for yourself .just believe what you are being told

That's what happened to you, not to me. I do my own independent research before I believe anything.

 

[cataway]

That's what happened to you, not to me. I do my own independent research before I believe anything.

and yet you post Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Actually, the Bible constantly mentions the Earth, not Heaven, as the continued residence for our future.

(It just needs cleaned up in places, right?)

Isaiah 45:18; see Ecclesiastes 1:4.

Psalms 37:10,11,29; see Matt 5:5.

Isaiah 11:6-9.

Daniel 9:13,14. (Where are “people of every nation and language”? Here, at the Earth.)

Revelation 21:3,4.(“..the Tent of God is with mankind…”. Where is mankind? Here on Earth.)

Many more.

To be able to live forever (which, BTW, does not mean immortality), why should we need to change to another form?
Do not our bodies already have rejuvenating properties? (Which we lose as we age and die, due to sin & imperfection. Per Romans 5:12; Isaiah 33:24b).
When the value of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice is finally applied to humankind (after the issues raised in Genesis 3 are fully settled), sin and imperfection will be removed, undoing the effects Adam brought on us. Per 1 Corinthians 15:22,23.

The Resurrection of dead mankind will then begin (Acts 24:15; John 5:28,29), and all who will live again will be given an opportunity to live forever, in perfection. (“And death will be no more…” per Revelation 21:4)


Take care.

 

[Trailblazer]

and yet you post Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 219-220

Reading that book was part of my research. I don't make things up. I have to learn them from somebody who is knowledgeable.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Yes that’s true; but is this *immediately* after death? Or could this be at the future resurrection? Notice the Apostle Paul’s words at Acts 24:15, that “there is going to be a Resurrection…”
But quite a few times, in 1 Corinthians 15 (vss.6,18,&20), 1 Thessalonians 4 (vss.14&15) Paul said many Christians who had died had “fallen asleep”; & in Acts 13:36, he said David “fell asleep” when he died. Acts 7:60 reports that after being stoned, Stephen “fell asleep.” So these Christians who died, were not in those “many mansions,” at that time. Only when the *future* resurrection came, at their ‘standing back to life,’ would they receive their reward.

The Bible is consistent on the condition of the dead. This concept of ‘souls existing after death’, is not found in the Bible. Just the opposite: nephesh - “soul” in Hebrew - dies. Ezekiel 18:4; Ezekiel 18:20.

Where the Bible mentions “dead people”, like at
Leviticus 19:28,
Leviticus 21:1,
Leviticus 21:11,
Numbers 6:11 & other verses, the phrase in Hebrew is “dead souls”.

I am not making this up. As I mentioned in another thread, the Bible’s message has endured many attacks. Thankfully, due to a plethora of ancient manuscripts uncovered, we can find its real meaning, what it really teaches. And it is consistent throughout.

How important, do you think, are Jesus’ words at Luke 10:21? If God can either ‘hide’ its meaning or ‘reveal’ its meaning, wouldn’t it be important to try and please Him, measure up to His requirements, to receive His blessing?

I guess the question is…what are God’s requirements? How does God want people to live?

I think those practicing sexual immorality, and those hating others, performing these actions condemned in God’s Word, are obviously disqualified from receiving “revealed” information from God.

Agree?



More later. I think I may start a thread on the above topic.

Goodnight.