Heaven

[Aupmanyav]

You are free to believe anything you want to about the next life since you have free will. We will find out whose beliefs were absurd when we die.
You already know why I believe what I do, because I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about the afterlife.

I wish that uneducated 19th Century Iranian should have given some evidence of what he said, about afterlife or about his being the manifestation of Allah or even about existence of Allah; rather than writing 17,000 tablets about it in addition to many books.
All that verbosity and no verifiable evidence. But in Abrahamic religions, there is no evidence, only claims.
The brain does not function after death and there is no one and nothing to find to find anything after death. Our individuality ceases to exist after death and what constitutes us merges back into 'what exists', nature, 'physical energy', Brahman. It is so simple, but with the various spectacles people wear, they do not see it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If it is not physical how could it cater to the lower pleasures, which involve the physical body?

Theist Hindus believe that Indra's heaven where people with good deeds are sent is completely physical and a place for enjoyment, booze, dancers, all kinds of food OR veg.food and community prayers - whatever a person likes.
But, as you know, there are atheist Hindus too who do not believe in all this clap-trap.

 

[cataway]

1 Peter 3:20​

who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.

 

[Trailblazer]

I've visited many cemeteries over the years, but I've never encountered a dead person who had been physically resurrected from the dead. In fact, I've traveled across the country and visited some of the oldest cemeteries in the country, but I've never seen a resurrected dead person. And I'm one of those unusual people who intentionally goes into cemeteries to communicate with and interact with the dead. I've been visiting cemeteries for years, so I'd think that if dead people could be resurrected in their mortal bodies, I would have seen them by now. That is not to mention the fact that I'm a psychic medium and a paranormal investigator who has personally investigated a lot of different locations across the country. I'm also in contact, either in person or online, with other psychic mediums and paranormal investigators across the country and around the world. So, if there were dead people rising from their graves in their physical bodies and walking around, I'm pretty damn sure that I, of all people, would have heard about it by now. And lastly, I shudder to think of a future supernatural event where dead bodies all over the world rose from their graves at once. Talk about a zombie apocalypse. If that happens, I think it's a good thing I'm such an avid fan of The Walking Dead (and the TWD universe) because I'd know what to do and how to survive such a terrifying event.

No, of course you have not seen any dead physical bodies walking around in graveyards...
Since you were a Christian for most of your life, don't you know that the resurrection of dead bodies from their graves is supposed to occur on Judgment Day which is when Christ returns? Shame on you (just kidding. )

The Baha'i Faith has a completely different take on the resurrection of the dead although, like Christians, we believe it will occur on The Day of Judgment

The Great Resurrection ​

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—221

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.​

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …​

​

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …​

​

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of 222 the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.​

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222

 

[Trailblazer]

I wish that uneducated 19th Century Iranian should have given some evidence of what he said, about afterlife or about his being the manifestation of Allah or even about existence of Allah

He did give evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

Theist Hindus believe that Indra's heaven where people with good deeds are sent is completely physical and a place for enjoyment, booze, dancers, all kinds of food OR veg.food and community prayers - whatever a person likes.
But, as you know, there are atheist Hindus too who do not believe in all this clap-trap.

A physical heaven is clap-trap. The atheist Hindus are closer to the truth.

 

[cataway]

No, of course you have not seen any dead physical bodies walking around in graveyards...
Since you were a Christian for most of your life, don't you know that the resurrection of dead bodies from their graves is supposed to occur on Judgment Day which is when Christ returns? Shame on you (just kidding. )

The Baha'i Faith has a completely different take on the resurrection of the dead although, like Christians, we believe it will occur on The Day of Judgment

The Great Resurrection ​

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—221

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.​

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …​

​

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …​

​

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of 222 the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.​

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222

and there it is .the blind leading the blind

 

[Aupmanyav]

A physical heaven is clap-trap. The atheist Hindus are closer to the truth.

Physical heaven is not the only clap-trap for an atheist Hindu. The whole edifice of God, souls, everlasting life - - prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis is clap-trap for an atheist Hindu.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, ..

Ah, I understand now. You will be like 'happy little ghosts' for all eternity. (Size does not matter in the spiritual world)
Also tell us what you would do in your eternal spiritual life? Dance, sing, eat, sleep, friends, etc.? What has the Iranian manifestation of Allah has said about that?

 

[Alien826]

How do you think heaven is portrayed? I don't think there is anything specific in the Bible. I don't know where Christians got the idea that they would be floating around in the clouds and playing harps and praising God all the time, but if that was what it is like, it would be boring.

Yes, that's one way it's portrayed.

Reading the Bible, I suggest that the audience was mainly very poor people, to whom living in a "mansion" and never having to worry where their next meal was coming from would be heaven. Living like the rich people of their day would be something no one would ever get tired of, they would think.

I think that the reason you think you will get tired of what you are doing is because you are projecting life in the physical world onto life in the spiritual world, thinking it will be the same, but I don't believe it will be the same at all. There will be no end to what we can experience in heaven. With infinite time comes infinite experiences, so there will be no boredom. Nobody can evern experience this one world in a lifetime, but think about infinite worlds. With infinite worlds there will be infinite experiences.

I did say "unless we become very very different from what we are now". Obviously, a powerful god could alleviate boredom in lots of ways. For example, every 100 years he could wipe our memories clean and everything would seem fresh and new again.

I don't think that infinite experiences would help though. It might stretch the time before we got fed up with it all, but I have the feeling we would eventually get bored with that too. Imagine waking up every day, to be faced with choosing which amazing thing to experience, and knowing that would never end. "Oh no, another new galaxy to explore!"

But I usually feel the same way you do in spite of my beliefs. I don't want to live forever since that is a very long time! I am not as much worried about being depressed from boredom as I am worried about having to EXIST forever and I don't understand why believers find that so attractive. I am just hoping I change my mind about living forever after I arrive in heaven since there is no return ticket, and there will be no way we can die since we will already be dead!

I don't think that we couldn't die. We would not actually be dead, but alive in a different form. I don't see why that can't be terminated.

I've been thinking about this and have come up with "my perfect heaven".

First, the bad parts of your life would be rerun (all this could be virtual experience) but this time the bad parts would be made good. If you failed that exam, this time you pass. Times of your life that you were in pain would be re-experienced without the pain. Someone rejected you? This time he/she doesn't. Every disappointing experience you had would now happen as you hoped it would. See this an apology from God.

In the next stage, you get to be and do whatever you wish, in each case for long enough to enjoy it, but ending when the fun wore off. See this as a perfect "bucket list".

Finally, you get one perfect day, carefully tailored to you, where you are blissfully happy from the moment you wake up to when you fall asleep at night. And you never wake up.

 

[Nakosis]

you need not worry. Heaven was not promised . the thing promised can be found a John 3:16

John 3:16 is kind of silly.

God could have gave man eternal life from the beginning and there wouldn't have been any need to hang Jesus from the cross.

Why make a world where suffering exists if the only point is to escape it?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, of course you have not seen any dead physical bodies walking around in graveyards...
Since you were a Christian for most of your life, don't you know that the resurrection of dead bodies from their graves is supposed to occur on Judgment Day which is when Christ returns? Shame on you (just kidding. )

Yes, I know about the resurrection of the dead taught in the Bible. I was being facetious in my other post. I suppose I should have mentioned that.

The Baha'i Faith has a completely different take on the resurrection of the dead although, like Christians, we believe it will occur on The Day of Judgment

The Great Resurrection ​

The Day of Judgment is also the Day of Resurrection, of the raising of the dead. St. Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians says:—221

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.—I Cor. xv, 51–53.​

As to the meaning of these passages about the raising of the dead, Bahá’u’lláh writes in the Book of Íqán:—

… By the terms “life” and “death,” spoken of in the scriptures, is intended the life of faith and the death of unbelief. The generality of the people, owing to their failure to grasp the meaning of these words, rejected and despised the person of the Manifestation, deprived themselves of the light of His divine guidance, and refused to follow the example of that immortal Beauty. …​

​

… Even as Jesus said: “Ye must be born again” [John iii, 7]. Again He saith: “Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit” [John iii, 5–6]. The purpose of these words is that whosoever in every dispensation is born of the Spirit and is quickened by the breath of the Manifestation of Holiness, he verily is of those that have attained unto “life” and “resurrection” and have entered into the “paradise” of the love of God. And whosoever is not of them, is condemned to “death” and “deprivation,” to the “fire” of unbelief, and to the “wrath” of God. …​

​

In every age and century, the purpose of the Prophets of God and their chosen ones hath been no other but to affirm the spiritual significance of the terms “life,” “resurrection,” and “judgment.” … Wert thou to attain to but a dewdrop of the crystal waters of divine knowledge, thou wouldst readily realize that true life is not the life of the flesh but the life of the spirit. For the life of the flesh is common to both men and animals, whereas the life of 222 the spirit is possessed only by the pure in heart who have quaffed from the ocean of faith and partaken of the fruit of certitude. This life knoweth no death, and this existence is crowned by immortality. Even as it hath been said: “He who is a true believer liveth both in this world and in the world to come.” If by “life” be meant this earthly life, it is evident that death must needs overtake it.—Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 114, 118, 120–21.​

According to the Bahá’í teaching the Resurrection has nothing to do with the gross physical body. That body, once dead, is done with. It becomes decomposed and its atoms will never be recomposed into the same body.

Resurrection is the birth of the individual to spiritual life, through the gift of the Holy Spirit bestowed through the Manifestation of God. The grave from which he arises is the grave of ignorance and negligence of God. The sleep from which he awakens is the dormant spiritual condition in which many await the dawn of the Day of God. This dawn illumines all who have lived on the face of the earth, whether they are in the body or out of the body, but those who are spiritually blind cannot perceive it. The Day of Resurrection is not a day of twenty-four hours, but an era which has now begun and will last as long as the present world cycle continues. It will continue when all traces of the present civilization will have been wiped off the surface of the globe.”

Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, pp. 220-222

Thank you for sharing what you believe with me.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

God could have gave man eternal life from the beginning and there wouldn't have been any need to hang Jesus from the cross.

Replace the name Jesus with Attis (the Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation), and you'll have a strikingly familiar savior story similar to that of Jesus, except the Greek myths about Attis are dated 1250 BCE, which predates both the Bible and Christianity (see here). You could also replace the name Jesus with any of the other gods described in the following articles linked below, and you'll have more strikingly familiar stories that not only parallel the stories of his alleged crucifixion, death, and resurrection but also parallel other stories that have been written in the Bible about his supposed life on Earth. And, like the myths about Attis, these other stories about Christ-like figures from Greek mythology and other pagan religions predate both the Bible and Christianity. I recommend learning more about Jesus in comparative mythology. You can start here: Jesus in comparative mythology. In my opinion, these other accounts of Christlike figures demonstrate that paganism had a significant influence on the stories about Jesus and that Christianity's beliefs are not unique. I know that Christians like to claim that the Bible was divinely inspired by God and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world, but I don't believe that is true based on the historical information provided in these articles and in other similar articles online. Christianity, in my opinion, is a copycat religion.

10 Christ-Like Figures that predate Jesus

The Truth About Mythological Figures Similar To Jesus

Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ

 

[URAVIP2ME]

John 3:16 is kind of silly.
God could have gave man eternal life from the beginning and there wouldn't have been any need to hang Jesus from the cross.
Why make a world where suffering exists if the only point is to escape it?

God DID give man eternal life from the beginning of Adam being created.
Adam could live forever as long as he did Not break the Law regarding the forbidden fruit. - Gen. 2:17
Only by breaking the Law could Adam loose his everlasting life.
Sinners Satan and Adam brought suffering into our world.
Because we are Not responsible for what they did is why God sent Jesus to Earth to balance the Scales of Justice for us.
Satan Not only challenged the man Job (Job 2:4-5) but by way of extension Satan challenges all of us.
'Touch our flesh.... ' (loose physical health) and under suffering circumstances we would Not serve God.
Both Job and Jesus under adverse conditions proved Satan a liar and so can we.
Also, the passing of time was needed for us to be born and think who we would like as Sovereign over us.

 

[Trailblazer]

and there it is .the blind leading the blind

No, it is those who have sight trying to lead the blind, which is a lost cause.

 

[Trailblazer]

Also tell us what you would do in your eternal spiritual life? Dance, sing, eat, sleep, friends, etc.? What has the Iranian manifestation of Allah has said about that?

What we will be doing in our eternal spiritual life was not revealed by Baha'u'llah, and He explained why it was not revealed.

“If any man be told that which hath been ordained for such a soul in the worlds of God, the Lord of the throne on high and of earth below, his whole being will instantly blaze out in his great longing to attain that most exalted, that sanctified and resplendent station…. The nature of the soul after death can never be described, nor is it meet and permissible to reveal its whole character to the eyes of men.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 156​

 

[Trailblazer]

Why make a world where suffering exists if the only point is to escape it?

Because we have to go through this world in order to get prepared for the next world, where suffering no longer exists.

 

[Trailblazer]

Replace the name Jesus with Attis (the Phrygian-Greek god of vegetation), and you'll have a strikingly familiar savior story similar to that of Jesus, except the Greek myths about Attis are dated 1250 BCE, which predates both the Bible and Christianity (see here). You could also replace the name Jesus with any of the other gods described in the following articles linked below, and you'll have more strikingly familiar stories that not only parallel the stories of his alleged crucifixion, death, and resurrection but also parallel other stories that have been written in the Bible about his supposed life on Earth. And, like the myths about Attis, these other stories about Christ-like figures from Greek mythology and other pagan religions predate both the Bible and Christianity. I recommend learning more about Jesus in comparative mythology. You can start here: Jesus in comparative mythology. In my opinion, these other accounts of Christlike figures demonstrate that paganism had a significant influence on the stories about Jesus and that Christianity's beliefs are not unique. I know that Christians like to claim that the Bible was divinely inspired by God and that Christianity is the only true religion in the world, but I don't believe that is true based on the historical information provided in these articles and in other similar articles online. Christianity, in my opinion, is a copycat religion.

10 Christ-Like Figures that predate Jesus

The Truth About Mythological Figures Similar To Jesus

Other Gods That Rose From the Dead in Spring Before Jesus Christ

*Informative*

 

[Nakosis]

Because we have to go through this world in order to get prepared for the next world, where suffering no longer exists.

Why?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, that's one way it's portrayed.

Reading the Bible, I suggest that the audience was mainly very poor people, to whom living in a "mansion" and never having to worry where their next meal was coming from would be heaven. Living like the rich people of their day would be something no one would ever get tired of, they would think.

That is an astute observation, and after all, the Bible was written to apply to the times in which it was written, so if it doesn't makes sense to people living in the modern age, that's why.

I did say "unless we become very very different from what we are now". Obviously, a powerful god could alleviate boredom in lots of ways. For example, every 100 years he could wipe our memories clean and everything would seem fresh and new again.

Yes, that is the key to understanding this.... we will be very different from what we are now. For one thing, we won't have a physical body.

I don't think that infinite experiences would help though. It might stretch the time before we got fed up with it all, but I have the feeling we would eventually get bored with that too. Imagine waking up every day, to be faced with choosing which amazing thing to experience, and knowing that would never end. "Oh no, another new galaxy to explore!"

I think you are projecting life in this world onto life in the next world, but it will be so very different, not only because we will be very different, but also because the spiritual world will also be very different. In other words, I think you are thinking of experiences as we experience them here, but I don't think experiences in the spiritual world will be anything like what we experience in this world. For one thing, there won't be anything physical, so it is impossible to understand and describe it since we have never experienced anything like it.

I don't think that we couldn't die. We would not actually be dead, but alive in a different form. I don't see why that can't be terminated.

But your life won't be able to be terminated because the soul is immortal, so it cannot die. That's the problem.

I've been thinking about this and have come up with "my perfect heaven".

First, the bad parts of your life would be rerun (all this could be virtual experience) but this time the bad parts would be made good. If you failed that exam, this time you pass. Times of your life that you were in pain would be re-experienced without the pain. Someone rejected you? This time he/she doesn't. Every disappointing experience you had would now happen as you hoped it would. See this an apology from God.

I understand that this is your fantasy heaven, but since I have beliefs I try to go with what was revealed by Baha'u'llah....
I believe there will be a rerun of everything that we did in this life, since that is what my religion teaches...

“It is clear and evident that all men shall, after their physical death, estimate the worth of their deeds, and realize all that their hands have wrought.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 171​

However, after our life review, I don't think we will be able to redo any of those experiences so that the bad parts will be good... I don't think it will matter anymore, we did what we did and it is done adn God wil forgive us for these things since God is the Ever-Forgiving. I think the bigger problem is us forgiving ourselves.

The afterlife is no different than in this life. The past is gone and it cannot be redone so I don't we any value in thinking about the past, except to remember what we learned from it. I understand this is your fantasy, wanting to make things right that were not right, but I prefer to leave the past behind, so my heaven would be to have my memories erased, since most of them are bad, and even if they were good, why think about them? It is the same in this life. We can never turn back the clock and get the past back. We can only live in the present and have hope for the future.

The one thing I hope for in this life, and especially in the afterlife, is that I like myself better than I do now! I also hope that I will like everyone, becaue there are certain people I do not like very much and it is not their fault. Don't worry, none of these people are atheists, I like all the atheists. It is certain believers I do not like, ones who share my beliefs. Nuff said.

In the next stage, you get to be and do whatever you wish, in each case for long enough to enjoy it, but ending when the fun wore off. See this as a perfect "bucket list".

I think it will be something like that, from what I have read about afterlife experiences, not from my religion, but from other books.

Finally, you get one perfect day, carefully tailored to you, where you are blissfully happy from the moment you wake up to when you fall asleep at night. And you never wake up.

Why would you want to never exist anymore? Think about it.
If I had no hope that the afterlife would be better than this life I would not want to exist anymore, but I believe that it will be far better than anything we can even imagine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why?

Because God set it up that way.