Heaven

[cataway]

I find it odd just how much Christians have changed the Christian view of afterlife. Traditionally there is no soul that gets transportesld to another realm for judgment to go to Heaven or Hell. Rather we stay dead and remain dead until the Day of Judgement where everyone will be resurrected to face judgement.
This "beam me up, Goddy" just seems so strange, even foriegn to the Bible just silly. The Bible says we will all be resurrected and then be admitted into the kingdom or killed again and remain eternally dead. Afterall, it's says "will not perish but have everlasting life." Wouldn't it just be silly if we are judged after we die and then get resurrected to be judged again?

get resurrected just to get killed ? do ya think maybe you should give that some more thought ??

 

[cataway]

This is what most Christians still believe but I consider it completely absurd. It has no basis in the Bible but rather it is based upon a misinterpretation of Bible verses. Dead and decomposed bodies don't come back to life again and rise from their graves. That is patently absurd. Christians say "God can do anything because God is omnipotent" but why would God do that?

No, the physical body once dead remains dead and the soul (spirit) leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world (Heaven or Hell).
After the physical body dies the soul is raised as a spiritual body and goes to heaven where it continues to live forever.
The physical body cannot exist in the Kingdom of God in heaven. That is why it needs to be transformed into a spiritual body.
That is what the Bible actually says.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

Physical bodies will not be resurrected and then go to heaven since physical bodies cannot exist in heaven, since heaven is a spiritual world, not a physical world.

"will not perish but have everlasting life." Everlasting life (eternal life) refers to the state of the soul that is near to God, it has nothing to do with the physical body living forever. All souls will continue to exist forever since the soul is immortal, but the souls who are near to God will have everlasting life. The souls who are far from God will continue to exist, but they will be "as dead souls" since they will be spiritually dead (not near God). That is what Hell is.

Of course, this is all according to my Bahai beliefs, but I think it is supported by the Bible, when the Bible is interpreted correctly.

Ezekiel 18:4​

Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Ezekiel 18:20​

The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone."
is seams that if the soul is dead its not going any were

 

[cataway]

This is what most Christians still believe but I consider it completely absurd. It has no basis in the Bible but rather it is based upon a misinterpretation of Bible verses. Dead and decomposed bodies don't come back to life again and rise from their graves. That is patently absurd. Christians say "God can do anything because God is omnipotent" but why would God do that?

No, the physical body once dead remains dead and the soul (spirit) leaves the body and ascends to the spiritual world (Heaven or Hell).
After the physical body dies the soul is raised as a spiritual body and goes to heaven where it continues to live forever.
The physical body cannot exist in the Kingdom of God in heaven. That is why it needs to be transformed into a spiritual body.
That is what the Bible actually says.

1 Corinthians 15 New Living Translation

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies.

44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

Physical bodies will not be resurrected and then go to heaven since physical bodies cannot exist in heaven, since heaven is a spiritual world, not a physical world.

"will not perish but have everlasting life." Everlasting life (eternal life) refers to the state of the soul that is near to God, it has nothing to do with the physical body living forever. All souls will continue to exist forever since the soul is immortal, but the souls who are near to God will have everlasting life. The souls who are far from God will continue to exist, but they will be "as dead souls" since they will be spiritually dead (not near God). That is what Hell is.

Of course, this is all according to my Bahai beliefs, but I think it is supported by the Bible, when the Bible is interpreted correctly.

No

 

[Trailblazer]

Ezekiel 18:4
Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Ezekiel 18:20​

The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will bear no guilt because of the error of his father, and a father will bear no guilt because of the error of his son. The righteousness of the righteous one will be accounted to him alone, and the wickedness of the wicked one will be accounted to him alone."
is seams that if the soul is dead its not going any were

The soul who sins will die because the soul who sins will not have eternal life, which is spiritual life.
Eternal life is nearness to God, it has nothing to do with the actual life or death of the soul. No soul can ever die since it is immortal.

The soul is the person, the physical body is matter but has no identity.
The person who dies and is near to God will have eternal life, but the person who dies and is far from God will not have eternal life, so that person will be "as dead" compared to the person who is near to God.

 

[Trailblazer]

No

Are you saying that the Bible is wrong?

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I find it odd just how much Christians have changed the Christian view of afterlife. Traditionally there is no soul that gets transportesld to another realm for judgment to go to Heaven or Hell. Rather we stay dead and remain dead until the Day of Judgement where everyone will be resurrected to face judgement.
This "beam me up, Goddy" just seems so strange, even foriegn to the Bible just silly. The Bible says we will all be resurrected and then be admitted into the kingdom or killed again and remain eternally dead. Afterall, it's says "will not perish but have everlasting life." Wouldn't it just be silly if we are judged after we die and then get resurrected to be judged again?

My understanding of the afterlife differs significantly from that of Bible-believing Christians because it is based on my years of personal experiences as a psychic medium and veteran paranormal investigator. However, I don't think this is the appropriate thread to elaborate on my personal knowledge of the afterlife because this is a non-debate forum, and I'm sure there will be Christians who attempt to refute my personal experiences. In other words, what I say in my response could spark a debate and potentially derail the thread. But I will say that, as a psychic medium and paranormal investigator, I've had far too many experiences that directly contradict what the Bible says will happen to people after death. So, it isn't reasonable for me to believe the Bible.

 

[cataway]

Are you saying that the Bible is wrong?

saying your understanding is wrong

 

[cataway]

The soul who sins will die because the soul who sins will not have eternal life, which is spiritual life.
Eternal life is nearness to God, it has nothing to do with the actual life or death of the soul. No soul can ever die since it is immortal.

The soul is the person, the physical body is mattmaking thier but has no identity.
The person who dies and is near to God will have eternal life, but the person who dies and is far from God will not have eternal life, so that person will be "as dead" compared to the person who is near to God.

now you are just making things up to make yourself feel good. fact is a cat is a soul a dog is a soul even a cow is a soul .

Ecclesiastes 3:19​

for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.

 

[Trailblazer]

My understanding of the afterlife differs significantly from that of Bible-believing Christians because it is based on my years of personal experiences as a psychic medium and veteran paranormal investigator. However, I don't think this is the appropriate thread to elaborate on my personal knowledge of the afterlife because this is a non-debate forum, and I'm sure there will be Christians who attempt to refute my personal experiences. In other words, what I say in my response could spark a debate and potentially derail the thread. But I will say that, as a psychic medium and paranormal investigator, I've had far too many experiences that directly contradict what the Bible says will happen to people after death. So, it isn't reasonable for me to believe the Bible.

I think it is already too late to keep from preventing a debate.
What the Bible says will happen to people after death is NOT what Christians believe it says. Christians have completely misinterpreted the Bible.
What you have experienced is essentially what is going to happen, whether Christians like it or not.

 

[Trailblazer]

saying your understanding is wrong

I believe that your understanding is wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

now you are just making things up to make yourself feel good. fact is a cat is a soul a dog is a soul even a cow is a soul .

Ecclesiastes 3:19​

for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.

That is true. Humans and animals have the same outcome, and that outcome is that their physical bodies die eventually.

Both humans and animals have a spirit, but animals do not have a soul that returns to God since animals have no conception of God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Are you saying that the Bible is wrong?

The majority of Christians claim and believe that the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God, but they cannot agree on what will happen to people in the afterlife. Some Christians believe in soul sleep, which the Bible describes in several scriptures (Daniel 12:2, 2 Chronicles 32:33, 2 Chronicles 33:20, 1 Kings 15:8, 1 Kings 16:28, 2 Kings 13:13, 2 Kings 14:29, John 11:11–15, 1 Thessalonians 4:13–17). However, 2 Corinthians 5:8 implies that the people who believe in Jesus will be in heaven with him immediately following their death, and Hebrews 9:27 implies that believers and non-believers alike will face judgment immediately following their death. On the other hand, Revelation 20:13 appears to suggest the opposite of these two scriptures because it says that "the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them," and "each individual was judged according to what they had done." If there are human spirits residing in the sea awaiting God's judgment, then how does that coincide with the other scriptures that suggest that human spirits face God's judgment immediately after death? As far as I'm concerned, the Bible has several contradictory teachings about the afterlife.

Do human spirits rise upward from the earth, as Ecclesiastes 3:21 suggests, or do some rise from the sea and Hades and then face judgment, as it is written in Revelation 20:13? Or, after death, do all human spirits immediately face God's judgment (Hebrews 9:27), and the followers of Jesus are instantly in his presence (2 Corinthians 5:8)? Or do all human spirits (both believers and nonbelievers) fall asleep in the grave to be resurrected and judged later in the alleged end times (1 Thessalonians 4:13–17, Revelation 20:11–15)? And finally, if the dead know nothing, as Ecclesiastes 9:5 suggests, then how would they know if they are in heaven or hell? For instance, in the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31), the rich man knew that he was in torment in Hades. Why would there be a parable of a dead man being aware that he was in hell if the dead know nothing, as the Bible says in Ecclesiastes 9:5? Also, Ecclesiastes 9:5 suggests that there is no final reward for the dead and that even their names are forgotten, which is in contrast to several other verses in the Bible that imply there are final rewards bestowed in heaven (like these verses here) and that people's names have been written in a "Book of Life" that God is said to have on hand (see the verses here), as well as their names being recorded in heaven (Luke 10:20). So, what is the answer to these questions? Well, it appears that the answers to the Bible's claims about the afterlife depend on which Christian you ask and their personal interpretation of the Bible.

I think it is already too late to keep from preventing a debate.

I don't think I should contribute to a debate since this is a non-debate forum. I'm trying not to be confrontational.

What the Bible says will happen to people after death is NOT what Christians believe it says. Christians have completely misinterpreted the Bible.

I believe that is true based on my experiences with lost and confused earthbound human spirits. I've shared these experiences in other threads.

What you have experienced is essentially what is going to happen, whether Christians like it or not.

I believe that is true as well.

 

[Trailblazer]

Well, it appears that the answers to the Bible's claims about the afterlife depend on which Christian you ask and their personal interpretation of the Bible.

Yes, that is obvious to anyone who reads what Christians post, but I don't think the individual Christians realize that, since they all think the verses they cite and their interpretation of those verses is the "right one" that accurately depicts the afterlife.

I am glad that as a Baha'i I do not have to depend upon the Bible for my beliefs about the afterlife because I cannot say that I would ever be able to know which verses accurately depict what we should expect in the afterlife.

 

[cataway]

That is true. Humans and animals have the same outcome, and that outcome is that their physical bodies die eventually.

Both humans and animals have a spirit, but animals do not have a soul that returns to God since animals have no conception of God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

first you say the soul returns to god then you use Ecclesiastes 12:7 ....and the spirit shall return unto God " which is it ?? which way are you really going to stick with ?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Eternal life is nearness to God, it has nothing to do with the actual life or death of the soul. No soul can ever die since it is immortal.

That is correct. Both Jesus and Muhammad taught thus.

 

[cataway]

Yes, that is obvious to anyone who reads what Christians post, but I don't think the individual Christians realize that, since they all think the verses they cite and their interpretation of those verses is the "right one" that accurately depicts the afterlife.

I am glad that as a Baha'i I do not have to depend upon the Bible for my beliefs about the afterlife because I cannot say that I would ever be able to know which verses accurately depict what we should expect in the afterlife.

whats a after life?

 

[Trailblazer]

first you say the soul returns to god then you use Ecclesiastes 12:7 ....and the spirit shall return unto God " which is it ?? which way are you really going to stick with ?

The human soul is the same entity as the human spirit... In other words, in the context of the afterlife, the words spirit and soul mean the same thing.

 

[cataway]

The human soul is the same entity as the human spirit... In other words, in the context of the afterlife, the words spirit and soul mean the same thing.

now you are just making things up

 

[Trailblazer]

whats a after life?

What is referred to as the afterlife is what happens to the person (the soul) after living life in this world.
What is referred to as afterlife is really just another life in the spiritual world, a continuation of the life we lived in this world.

Below is an excerpt from a long article on death and dying is found in the Baha’i Library online. The part about death and dying starts on the middle of page 4.

"Death is regarded as the shedding away of the physical frame but no more, the real part of the person is the soul, which is indestructible. In this there is nothing new, but the Bahá’í thought added another dimension to this idea. The soul is the sum total of the personality it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, having left his material side behind, remains the same person, and he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. His heaven therefore is the continuation of the pure life that he conducted in the physical world, and his hell is the continuation of the immoral life, which he conducted on earth. The effort to come nearer to God in the physical world continues with coming near God in the heaven of the mystical paradise. Remoteness from God in the physical life means remoteness in the world to come.​

​

The challenge of life in this world continues in the world of spiritual reality as well, only that in the latter the meeting of this challenge is easier because the person is free from physical needs.​

​

Bahá’u’lláh explains that since the mystery of death has such fateful effects, it better remains unrevealed, but he confides that far from being an occasion for grief, death is an opportunity for joy. For the soul is freed from the material form just like the bird is freed when the cage is broken."​

​

From: Death and Dying in the Bahá’í Faith​

 

[Trailblazer]

now you are just making things up

No, I got that from my religion, but what I am describing is also in the Bible when it is understood correctly.