Heaven

[Sgt. Pepper]

I am glad that as a Baha'i I do not have to depend upon the Bible for my beliefs about the afterlife because I cannot say that I would ever be able to know which verses accurately depict what we should expect in the afterlife.

Christians, in my opinion, should not rely on the Bible either, but I realize it is unlikely. Unfortunately, what Christians believe about the afterlife as taught in the Bible results in my encounters with lost and confused earthbound human spirits. Many of these spirits have asked me, as I've previously mentioned in other threads, "Where is God?" or "Where is Jesus?" and "Why am I not in heaven yet?" As a psychic medium and a former Christian, it often saddens me to encounter these spirits because their belief in the Bible misled them. Not only are they scared and confused, but many of them also feel as if they were betrayed, and they are angry about that. In my experience, these angry spirits are the hardest to cross over because they think that they were lied to and have a right to feel betrayed. But it's also difficult to convince a scared and confused spirit to cross over as well, such as the spirit of the young girl that I mentioned several weeks ago in a previous post (read here). I will say that it is truly an honor to assist these earthbound spirits in crossing over into the spirit world, but the experience can be quite sad for me at times. I'm sad to say that there are times when I can't convince one of these spirits to cross over.

 

[cataway]

No, I got that from my religion, but what I am describing is also in the Bible when it is understood correctly.

a soul with out spirit is a dead soul

 

[Trailblazer]

a soul with out spirit is a dead soul

A soul without spiritual life is as a dead soul, yet it continues to exist in the spiritual world.

 

[cataway]

A soul without spiritual life is as a dead soul, yet it continues to exist in the spiritual world.

there you go making things up again

 

[Trailblazer]

there you go making things up again

No, I never make anything up.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

No, I never make anything up.

When the debate is lost, most people who know that they are losing the debate will sometimes resort to false accusations and name-calling in an attempt to appear to be winning rather than losing the debate. I believe that we are seeing this petty tactic here in your thread, with you being accused of making things up and misunderstanding the Bible. In all the years I've been engaging with people online and in person, it appears to me that Christians have the most difficulty acknowledging when what they believe about the Bible or God is unmistakably proven to be untrue. Unfortunately, that has also been true when interacting with the spirits of Christians and their stubborn refusal to acknowledge, even in death, that their beliefs about the Bible and the afterlife are patently false. These earthbound Christians' spirits, like many living Christians, are vehemently resistant to acknowledging this fact. Even in death, some of these earthbound spirits would rather cling to their learned beliefs than face the sad fact that their beliefs are plainly untrue and that they were misled.

 

[Alien826]

I would suggest that, unless we become very very different from what we are now, then heaven as often portrayed is the most boring place imaginable. The problem is the infinite nature of the time we will spend there. I don't care what your desires are, carnal, spiritual or whatever, eventually you are going to get tired of whatever you are doing and want something new. Maybe there are are lots of new things to experience, but no matter how many you discover, there will still be infinite time coming your way needing new experiences to fill it. I would suggest that the ultimate state of boredom that we must inevitably attain could lead to a terminal state of depression, and eventually we will want only one thing, TO DIE! And that is the one thing that we can't have as we have been cursed with eternal life!

 

[cataway]

No, I never make anything up.

ahh ......someone made it up for you. we know ya don't want to believe death is the end of you .many pagon cultures down through history also held to that belief,not that it did them any good. you are a soul,for now, a living soul. someday you will die you will then be a dead soul . will Jesus one day say come out of the grave,to live again ?? in effect saving you from death, humm ?? does he have to save everyone from death ?? l would think no ,but then perhaps to give one more chance to be made right with God. then what? what happens to the one's that blatantly refuse ? have you ever read about ever-lasting cutoff?

Matthew 7:23​

And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Matthew 25:46​

These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

 

[cataway]

I would suggest that, unless we become very very different from what we are now, then heaven as often portrayed is the most boring place imaginable. The problem is the infinite nature of the time we will spend there. I don't care what your desires are, carnal, spiritual or whatever, eventually you are going to get tired of whatever you are doing and want something new. Maybe there are are lots of new things to experience, but no matter how many you discover, there will still be infinite time coming your way needing new experiences to fill it. I would suggest that the ultimate state of boredom that we must inevitably attain could lead to a terminal state of depression, and eventually we will want only one thing, TO DIE! And that is the one thing that we can't have as we have been cursed with eternal life!

i have in fact asked a similar question of someone that said they were going to heaven, what would you be doing there?? most don't have any idea. Then there is that person who comes along saying they would not want to live forever and at the same time say they are going to heaven where no one dies.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It all depends upon what one desires. If one desires the 'things of the flesh' I believe that will lead to suffering in the next life, since those desires will no longer be able to be fulfilled, but if one desires love that won't lead to suffering in this life or in the next life, it will only lead to joy.

No reason we can't have both here. As this sign my [half] siblings German grandma said, you have to drink all the beer you can while you're alive because they don't have any in Heaven (and she was an atheist).

 

[Trailblazer]

Unfortunately, that has also been true when interacting with the spirits of Christians and their stubborn refusal to acknowledge, even in death, that their beliefs about the Bible and the afterlife are patently false. These earthbound Christians' spirits, like many living Christians, are vehemently resistant to acknowledging this fact. Even in death, some of these earthbound spirits would rather cling to their learned beliefs than face the sad fact that their beliefs are plainly untrue and that they were misled.

From what I read in the book entitled The Afterlife Revealed, it is not only the earthbound spirits who refuse to acknowledge that their beliefs are wrong. Even some of the souls who cross over remain mired in their traditional religious beliefs, although they eventually evolve toward a single understanding of spirit.

“Alvin Mattson, a Lutheran minister who made his transition to the spirit world in 1970, is said to have communicated with his daughter, Ruth Mattson Taylor, Through the British medium Margaret Flavell Tweddell. He, too, reported various planes of existence. “From this point we can progress to higher planes – to higher levels of consciousness,” Mattson is quoted. “By ‘higher’ planes I do not mean spatially higher but rather those planes which have a finer vibration.” Mattson went on to say that many of the religious denominations continue to practice the rites of their respective churches on the lower or intermediate planes, where he made his abode, but that he has been permitted to visit the higher planes “where there is a unity of God-praise, not a segregation of the praise of God.​

​

A century earlier, Andrew Jackson Davis reported that many souls continue to subscribe to the same religious beliefs they held in the physical world. He referred to this sphere, or section of the sphere, as Altolissa. "Jews still believe in the doctrine of their fathers -- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Roman Catholics hold the same views they did before death; and there are other sects in Altolissa who think and believe in the same things and forms of faith they learned on earth," he stated, adding that they are so far below the 'higher planes' that this is required in order to make them feel 'at home.' However, all eventually evolve toward a single understanding of spirit."​

(The Afterlife Revealed, pp. 117-118)​

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Dead and decomposed bodies don't come back to life again and rise from their graves. That is patently absurd. Christians say "God can do anything because God is omnipotent" but why would God do that?

It happened a few times in the Gospels. Decomposition begins only moments after death.

Physical bodies will not be resurrected and then go to heaven since physical bodies cannot exist in heaven, since heaven is a spiritual world, not a physical world.

That's what the Bible says happened though. Jesus showed a great depth of healing abilities, and did ressurect a few people. Jesus amd Lazarus were both dead for a few days. Yet despite the decomposition that occurred it was healed and they were resurrected.

 

[Trailblazer]

No reason we can't have both here. As this sign my [half] siblings German grandma said, you have to drink all the beer you can while you're alive because they don't have any in Heaven (and she was an atheist).

You can and should have both here, since you won't be able to have both in Heaven.

Well, I am happy to see that at least one atheist recognized this. Some atheists I know say they are looking forward to the afterlife where they will have dancing girls and beer volcanoes. I don't think they really believed this though. They were just chiding believers.

 

[Trailblazer]

It happened a few times in the Gospels. Decomposition begins only moments after death.

Is there any reason I should believe that? Stories are just stories.

That's what the Bible says happened though. Jesus showed a great depth of healing abilities, and did ressurect a few people. Jesus amd Lazarus were both dead for a few days. Yet despite the decomposition that occurred it was healed and they were resurrected.

Is there any reason I should believe that? Stories are just stories.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

From what I read in the book entitled The Afterlife Revealed, it is not only the earthbound spirits who refuse to acknowledge that their beliefs are wrong. Even some of the souls who cross over remain mired in their traditional religious beliefs, although they eventually evolve toward a single understanding of spirit.

“Alvin Mattson, a Lutheran minister who made his transition to the spirit world in 1970, is said to have communicated with his daughter, Ruth Mattson Taylor, Through the British medium Margaret Flavell Tweddell. He, too, reported various planes of existence. “From this point we can progress to higher planes – to higher levels of consciousness,” Mattson is quoted. “By ‘higher’ planes I do not mean spatially higher but rather those planes which have a finer vibration.” Mattson went on to say that many of the religious denominations continue to practice the rites of their respective churches on the lower or intermediate planes, where he made his abode, but that he has been permitted to visit the higher planes “where there is a unity of God-praise, not a segregation of the praise of God.​

​

A century earlier, Andrew Jackson Davis reported that many souls continue to subscribe to the same religious beliefs they held in the physical world. He referred to this sphere, or section of the sphere, as Altolissa. "Jews still believe in the doctrine of their fathers -- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob; Roman Catholics hold the same views they did before death; and there are other sects in Altolissa who think and believe in the same things and forms of faith they learned on earth," he stated, adding that they are so far below the 'higher planes' that this is required in order to make them feel 'at home.' However, all eventually evolve toward a single understanding of spirit."​

(The Afterlife Revealed, pp. 117-118)​

Informative frubal.

 

[Trailblazer]

ahh ......someone made it up for you. we know ya don't want to believe death is the end of you .many pagon cultures down through history also held to that belief,not that it did them any good. you are a soul,for now, a living soul. someday you will die you will then be a dead soul .

I know you don't want to believe it but there is no such thing as a dead soul since the soul is immortal so it cannot die, but there will be dead bodies since bodies are mortal, and all bodies die eventually. Once dead the body remains dead. It does not come back to life. That is not in the Bible, it is a gross misinterpretation of Bible verses the church fed Christians and they bought it. Rising from the dead in the Bible means rising to spiritual life. Rising from the grave means rising from the grave of spiritual ignorance.

will Jesus one day say come out of the grave,to live again ?? in effect saving you from death, humm ?? does he have to save everyone from death ?? l would think no ,but then perhaps to give one more chance to be made right with God. then what? what happens to the one's that blatantly refuse ? have you ever read about ever-lasting cutoff?

NOBODY is coming out of the grave to live again in the same physical body.

Matthew 7:23​

And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

Matthew 25:46​

These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

These verses refer to those souls who are spiritually dead thus cut off from God forever.
Righteous souls are spiritually alive and they will have everlasting life, which means nearness to God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It all depends upon what one desires. If one desires the 'things of the flesh' I believe that will lead to suffering in the next life, since those desires will no longer be able to be fulfilled, but if one desires love that won't lead to suffering in this life or in the next life, it will only lead to joy.

Just like you feel that some of the beliefs that Christians have are completely and patently absurd (#79), I think your belief too in 'next life' is completely and patently absurd. Who told you such absurd things? And why should you believe that? Is there any evidence for that?

This "beam me up, Goddy" just seems so strange, even foriegn to the Bible just silly. The Bible says we will all be resurrected and then be admitted into the kingdom or killed again and remain eternally dead. After all, it's says "will not perish but have everlasting life." Wouldn't it just be silly if we are judged after we die and then get resurrected to be judged again?

If "beam me up, Goddy" is silly, then "will not perish but have everlasting life" also is equally silly. There is no evidence for that. Every living or non-living thing will perish in time.

 

[Trailblazer]

I would suggest that, unless we become very very different from what we are now, then heaven as often portrayed is the most boring place imaginable. The problem is the infinite nature of the time we will spend there. I don't care what your desires are, carnal, spiritual or whatever, eventually you are going to get tired of whatever you are doing and want something new. Maybe there are are lots of new things to experience, but no matter how many you discover, there will still be infinite time coming your way needing new experiences to fill it. I would suggest that the ultimate state of boredom that we must inevitably attain could lead to a terminal state of depression, and eventually we will want only one thing, TO DIE! And that is the one thing that we can't have as we have been cursed with eternal life!

How do you think heaven is portrayed? I don't think there is anything specific in the Bible. I don't know where Christians got the idea that they would be floating around in the clouds and playing harps and praising God all the time, but if that was what it is like, it would be boring.

I think that the reason you think you will get tired of what you are doing is because you are projecting life in the physical world onto life in the spiritual world, thinking it will be the same, but I don't believe it will be the same at all. There will be no end to what we can experience in heaven. With infinite time comes infinite experiences, so there will be no boredom. Nobody can evern experience this one world in a lifetime, but think about infinite worlds. With infinite worlds there will be infinite experiences.

“As to thy question concerning the worlds of God. Know thou of a truth that the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, pp. 151-152​

​

“O My servants! Sorrow not if, in these days and on this earthly plane, things contrary to your wishes have been ordained and manifested by God, for days of blissful joy, of heavenly delight, are assuredly in store for you. Worlds, holy and spiritually glorious, will be unveiled to your eyes.You are destined by Him, in this world and hereafter, to partake of their benefits, to share in their joys, and to obtain a portion of their sustaining grace. To each and every one of them you will, no doubt, attain.” Gleanings, p. 329​

But I usually feel the same way you do in spite of my beliefs. I don't want to live forever since that is a very long time! I am not as much worried about being depressed from boredom as I am worried about having to EXIST forever and I don't understand why believers find that so attractive. I am just hoping I change my mind about living forever after I arrive in heaven since there is no return ticket, and there will be no way we can die since we will already be dead!

 

[Trailblazer]

Just like you feel that some of the beliefs that Christians have are completely and patently absurd (#79), I think your belief too in 'next life' is completely and patently absurd. Who told you such absurd things? And why should you believe that? Is there any evidence for that?

You are free to believe anything you want to about the next life since you have free will. We will find out whose beliefs were absurd when we die.
You already know why I believe what I do, because I believe what Baha'u'llah wrote about the afterlife.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

I know you don't want to believe it but there is no such thing as a dead soul since the soul is immortal so it cannot die, but there will be dead bodies since bodies are mortal, and all bodies die eventually. Once dead the body remains dead. It does not come back to life. That is not in the Bible, it is a gross misinterpretation of Bible verses the church fed Christians and they bought it. Rising from the dead in the Bible means rising to spiritual life. Rising from the grave means rising from the grave of spiritual ignorance.

NOBODY is coming out of the grave to live again in the same physical body.

These verses refer to those souls who are spiritually dead thus cut off from God forever.
Righteous souls are spiritually alive and they will have everlasting life, which means nearness to God.

I've visited many cemeteries over the years, but I've never encountered a dead person who had been physically resurrected from the dead. In fact, I've traveled across the country and visited some of the oldest cemeteries in the country, but I've never seen a resurrected dead person. And I'm one of those unusual people who intentionally goes into cemeteries to communicate with and interact with the dead. I've been visiting cemeteries for years, so I'd think that if dead people could be resurrected in their mortal bodies, I would have seen them by now. That is not to mention the fact that I'm a psychic medium and a paranormal investigator who has personally investigated a lot of different locations across the country. I'm also in contact, either in person or online, with other psychic mediums and paranormal investigators across the country and around the world. So, if there were dead people rising from their graves in their physical bodies and walking around, I'm pretty damn sure that I, of all people, would have heard about it by now. And lastly, I shudder to think of a future supernatural event where dead bodies all over the world rose from their graves at once. Talk about a zombie apocalypse. If that happens, I think it's a good thing I'm such an avid fan of The Walking Dead (and the TWD universe) because I'd know what to do and how to survive such a terrifying event.