"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Guitar's Cry]

Yep a non problem like this one.

The lesbians who feel pressured to have sex and relationships with trans women

Some lesbians say they have been called transphobic for not wanting sex and relationships with trans women.

www.bbc.co.uk

It may be an individual problem rather than a widescale problem. There are always bad actors in all groups. Regardless of who you are, consent in relationships is important.

For another view of the referenced article:

Lesbians stand by trans women in open letter after 'dangerous' BBC article

The article quotes three unnamed lesbians who said they had been coerced into dating trans women, and used research many have criticized as biased.

www.nbcnews.com

"Lesbians defended transgender women on social media Wednesday after the BBC published an article that many critics said made "dangerous" claims that painted all transgender women as sexual predators.

The article, published Tuesday, is titled "We're being pressured into sex by some trans women." It quotes about half a dozen lesbians —including three who went by pseudonyms and three figureheads from groups that push anti-trans messages, such as the LGB Alliance and Get The L Out — who say cisgender lesbians are being pressured to date trans women out of fear that they'll be criticized for being transphobic. One woman said a trans woman pressured her into penetrative sex."

 

[icehorse]

You are feeling bothered by someone else's pronoun usage... I hope you realize that siding with this article instantly gets you into the anti-trans crowd.

I'm not anti-trans, but I am frequently anti-woke, and pronouns are a dangerous invention of the woke.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not anti-trans, but I am frequently anti-woke, and pronouns are a dangerous invention of the woke.

Pronouns are insidious: you yourself used two in this post!

 

[icehorse]

I legit wonder how you have reached to any part of this conclusion.

Elaborate then.

Convicted men are declaring themselves female in order to be sent to women's prisons. This is easily seachable.

Intact men are dclaring themselves female in order to invade lesbian gatherings and demand "dates". Also easily searchable.

 

[Tamino]

Do we all get to "access" the identities that we feel are our true selves? I think we do not. That is not some sort of right.

It's not? I am not allowed to decide, for myself, who I think I am? That's sad.
I mean, I could understand it if my identity would endanger others... but how exactly would gender identity endanger other people?

We do not, for example, confirm to people with anorexia that they are fat and need to lose more weight. We do NOT confirm people's dangerous fantasies.

I would actually prefer if gender was a far less important part of everybody's identity - but since our societies insist of making it a big deal, gender is still a pretty fundamental identifier. It is not, however, dangerous to one's health.

Some people are trans women and some are trans men. We should help them live their best lives. But we must do this without supporting misogynistic and/or homophobic solutions.

sounds fair. w

Ok, so you think gender is fluid. Now let's consider kids going thru puberty. Puberty is very uncomfortable for almost all kids. Couple that with the fact that at this age cognitive development is incomplete, social pressures are high, and logical thinking is impaired by raging hormones.

Given all of this, you think that kids with GD know for sure that they are in the wrong body that we should allow doctors to perform irreversible, dangerous, interventions - and now add on to that your belief that they might well just change their mind because (you think), gender is fluid?

How exactly did you make that jump from the gender being fluid to teens getting surgery? Sounds artistic, hope you didn't pull a muscle.

Have you heard of "self-id"? This horrible idea seems to be sweeping across Europe,

Jup. sounds like a good idea to me

The idea is that a person can self-identify as whatever sex they choose, change their minds as often as they want to, and no other action is necessary.

Yes. Perhaps people will then stop defining gender as such an overarching, important thing and start noticing that we're all people.

One result of this is that criminal men who have been convicted and are about to be sentenced declare themselves to be women. So they are put in women's prisons where they go on rape sprees.

What kind of incompetent prison system would allow one prisoner to rape other prisoners?

Similar things happen in shelters

Shelters have and use the right to keep out any person that would endager their charges, no matter which gender

and restrooms and locker rooms. This puts ALL WOMEN at heightened risk of assault and rape. ALL WOMEN.

I am already using mixed restrooms and locker rooms in a lot of situations. It's not actually an issue if everyone has some basic decency.

This is a thorny problem to be sure. But we need to find solutions that help trans people live good lives, without putting ALL WOMEN at risk.

Yeah, I agree... we should to a lot more to reduce the risk of assault and rape against women. Things like reducing dangerous gender-stereotypes for example... we could teach girls assertiveness and self-defense, while we could teach boys to handle their emotions without resorting to violence and to avoid machismo

 

[icehorse]

Pronouns are insidious: you yourself used two in this post!

Nice red herring, ffs.

If you have a good argument, why do you so often resort to fallacies?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Nice red herring, ffs.

If you have a good argument, why do you so often resort to fallacies?

I'm not arguing. I'm just calling attention to the fact that you're complaining about "pronouns."

If you want an argument against your position, get a coherent position.

 

[icehorse]

I would actually prefer if gender was a far less important part of everybody's identity - but since our societies insist of making it a big deal, gender is still a pretty fundamental identifier. It is not, however, dangerous to one's health.

GAC is extremely dangerous and GD can also be dangerous.

How exactly did you make that jump from the gender beind fluid to teens getting surgery? Sounds artistic, hope you didn't pull a muscle.

I think there is important logical inconsistency in your argument. OTOH you think gender is fluid. But OTOH you think confused kids should be allowed to permanently damage their bodies to lock in a gender?

What kind of incompetent prison system would allow one prisoner to rape other prisoners?

Rape in prison is the wide-spread reality. What's new is allowing situations in which men get to rape women.

Shelters have and use the right to keep out any person that would endager their charges, no matter which gender

Trans activists are actively undoing those safeguards.

It's not actually an issue if everyone has some basic decency.

Sadly, many, many, many men do not have that decency. Safeguarding women and girls is essential.

Yeah, I agree... we should to a lot more to reduce the risk of assault and rape against women. Things like reducing dangerous gender-stereotypes for example... we could teach girls assertiveness and self-defense, while we could teach boys to handle their emotions without resorting to violence and to avoid machismo

We're agreed.

That said, GAC is often pointed at tomboys and effeminate boys which actually exacerbates dangerous gender stereotypes.

There's a saying I've heard that I think sums up how we should deal with GD:

There are two sexes, no genders, and infinite personalities.

 

[icehorse]

I'm not arguing. I'm just calling attention to the fact that you're complaining about "pronouns."

If you want an argument against your position, get a coherent position.

Are you really saying that you don't understand the discussion of pronouns in the context of this thread?

That's rhetorical, I'm not going to spend any more energy on this particular distraction of yours.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Are you talking consent or medical determinations?

On the consent side, I agree with general standard we have for medical consent here in Ontario:

- anyone "able to understand treatment information and reasonably foresee consequences" of their treatment can consent to it. For something like surgery, this is deemed to be the case at 16 unless there's evidence to the contrary.

- under that age, consent can be provided by a "substitute decision maker" (usually a parent.

- even without SDM consent, a child under 16 can consent to surgery that's clearly in their best interest.

On the medical side, I don't know the precise medical indications for gender affirmation surgery, but I assume that it wouldn't be medically indicated until the patient is a a given level of growth or development.

Ok, assume you have the consent of the “substitute decision maker” and consent on the medical side. In your view, what is the youngest age you would approve?

 

[icehorse]

The whole problem cited in the link is that it's about
how someone "feels" about an anecdotal (unverified)
experience with another person. Is the problem merely
internal (how she feels) or external (actual coercion)?
There's nothing objective in there.

The entire trans phenomenon is based on the undetectable "feelings" that trans people have. So for this topic, feelings are very much in play.

 

[icehorse]

Your ignorance of the nuances of human sexuality and the fact that it exists on a broad continuum you haven't bothered to learn most likely explains your exasperated bigotry.

Biological sex and human sexuality are two distinct topics.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ok, assume you have the consent of the “substitute decision maker” and consent on the medical side. In your view, what is the youngest age you would approve?

No minimum age when it's in the best interests of the child.

Practically, medical considerations would likely dictate a minimum age for surgery.

Edit: what's your answer and why?

 

[Revoltingest]

FWIW, various lesbian meetings have been disrupted by trans women. And such pressure is a part of how the derogatory term "TERF" came into existence.

This should be obvious, but here goes: as a rule, lesbians are not interested in having sex with people who have penises.

I wonder how many lesbian meetings are actually
disrupted by them? 2? 3? This doesn't appear
to be anything relevant to crafting pubic policy
regarding transitioning or bathroom usage.

 

[McBell]

Glad your letting your baby tantrum over the answer you don't like out.

Since you did not answer, the above is nothing more than projection on your part.

 

[icehorse]

I wonder how many lesbian meetings are actually
disrupted by them? 2? 3? This doesn't appear
to be anything relevant to crafting pubic policy
regarding transitioning or bathroom usage.

How many women are you willing to throw under the bus?

I don't know what your thought process is, but your posts closely align with people who use intersectionality theory (IT). IT is an anti-intellectual worldview, fwiw.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

No minimum age when it's in the best interests of the child.

Practically, medical considerations would likely dictate a minimum age for surgery.

Edit: what's your answer and why?

You have a nephew named Tommy. Your brother, Tommy’s father, approaches you.

Him: “Brother, I have exciting news. Tommy is all set for gender transition surgery!

I know he is only age 6 but ever since we saw a transgender person a year ago and had the gender conversation with him, he has been persistent. He has always acted more feminine. We wanted to get ahead of it before he started first grade at the public school. We had a little trouble, but we found a psychiatrist to clear him and a surgeon willing to do the procedure.

The surgeon said he can remove Tommy’s penis and a piece of his colon to make what sort of looks like a vagina. He’s going to have to regularly go in for minor procedures to prevent the wound from closing up, but the wife and I are very excited about this. She’s always wanted a girl! What do you think?”

You: “Sure go ahead.”

Do I have your response to this hypothetical situation correct?

 

[Revoltingest]

The entire trans phenomenon is based on the undetectable "feelings" that trans people have. So for this topic, feelings are very much in play.

The objections to homosexuality, bisexuality, gender
dysphoria, & transitioning are also based on feelings,
either religious or revulsion. (There is no science to
show those conditions aren't real.)
I allow that people's feelings are real to them. And as
long as they aren't used to justify interfering with the
liberty of others, it's OK.
Transitioning is a major medical decision & process,
so especially when involving the young, there should
be great care & consideration. There will be errors in
the process, but the question is whether there is net
benefit if handled with a proper standard of care. My
perusal of the literature shows there is.

One could argue that anything based on "feelings"
is bogus, eg, depression, PTSD, anxiety, etc.
Yet people who suffer from them benefit from
treatment that can include drugs. Gender dysphoria
can (but doesn't always) go farther with surgery.
What matters isn't that everyone else believe in
them....it's that treatment can be useful to improve
their lives.

 

[icehorse]

== Thread Interlude ==

This is a heated topic no doubt.

It struck me that I have been personally attacked many times on this thread. My general policy is to avoid making personal attacks unless I've been attacked first. I'm sure I'm not perfect at that, but that's my explicit goal.

Zooming way out, when thinking about debates in general I think it's pretty well understood that personal attacks are a sign of weak arguments, correct?

Another common tactic employed by debaters with weak arguments is the use of the strawman.

With all of that in mind, I think it's interesting to note that SO FAR in this thread, FIFTEEN personal attacks have been launched in my general direction.

I didn't count the number of strawman arguments, but there have been many.

==

Again, it's clear this is a very emotional and consequential topic, and that many of us care about it. Wouldn't it be better if we tried to stick to debating the ideas in good faith?

 

[Revoltingest]

How many women are you willing to throw under the bus?

Is it to be "thrown under the bus" if
she unknowing shares a lavatory
with a trans woman?
I need that answer & perhaps others
before I can quantitatively answer your
metaphoric question.

I don't know what your thought process is, but your posts closely align with people who use intersectionality theory (IT).

You don't read much.
Otherwise you'd have noticed my
mocking "intersectionality" & other
vapid feminist buzzwords.