"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[icehorse]

Is it to be "thrown under the bus" if
she unknowing shares a lavatory
with a trans woman?
I need that answer & perhaps others
before I can quantify based on your
metaphoric question.

The topic you responded to was the disruption of lesbian meetings..

You don't read much.
Otherwise you'd have noticed my
mocking "intersectionality" & other
feminist buzzwords.

HAHAHA - Well reading, and reading your posts, are two very different things

I'm glad to hear that you mock intersectionality. But I think it's more of a woke term than a feminist term.

==

But you DO seem far more interested in defending a handful of trans people than gay women, and that smacks of IT, hence the question.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You have a nephew named Tommy. Your brother, Tommy’s father, approaches you.

Him: “Brother, I have exciting news. Tommy is all set for gender transition surgery!

I know he is only age 6 but ever since we saw a transgender person a year ago and had the gender conversation with him, he has been persistent. He has always acted more feminine. We wanted to get ahead of it before he started first grade at the public school. We had a little trouble, but we found a psychiatrist to clear him and a surgeon willing to do the procedure.

The surgeon said he can remove Tommy’s penis and a piece of his colon to make what sort of looks like a vagina. He’s going to have to regularly go in for minor procedures to prevent the wound from closing up, but the wife and I are very excited about this. She’s always wanted a girl! What do you think?”

You: “Sure go ahead.”

Do I have your response to this hypothetical situation correct?

You have a cartoon understanding of the situation.

Anyhow, I've answered several of your questions. You haven't answered mine.

 

[Revoltingest]

The topic you responded to was the disruption of lesbian meetings..


HAHAHA - Well reading, and reading your posts, are two very different things

I'm glad to hear that you mock intersectionality. But I think it's more of a woke term than a feminist term.

==

But you DO seem far more interested in defending a handful of trans people than gay women, and that smacks of IT, hence the question.

I see no evidence that anyone is being "thrown
under the bus" when trans women disrupt
lesbian meetings. Your metaphor means
something far more onerous than that.

FYI...

What’s Intersectionality? Let These Scholars Explain the Theory and Its History

A brief history of the theory, courtesy of the scholars behind a project dedicated to the idea

time.com

 

[Tamino]

GAC is extremely dangerous and GD can also be dangerous.

Help me out... GAC is Gender Affirming Care? Sorry, I'm not familiar with all the English terms. and GD? is that like body disphoria?

I think there is important logical inconsistency in your argument. OTOH you think gender is fluid. But OTOH you think confused kids should be allowed to permanently damage their bodies to lock in a gender?

I think there is important logical inconsistency in your argument. I have stated that I think gender is fluid, but I have not written a single word about my opinions on surgeries and age limits.

Rape in prison is the wide-spread reality. What's new is allowing situations in which men get to rape women.

I don't get it... is rape less horrible if no one gets pregnant? Why not protect everyone from rape for a change?

Trans activists are actively undoing those safeguards.

None that I know of.

Sadly, many, many, many men do not have that decency. Safeguarding women and girls is essential.

Yes, agreed. Strict segregation of genders, however, has not proven an effective safeguard.

That said, GAC is often pointed at tomboys and effeminate boys which actually exacerbates dangerous gender stereotypes.

Yes, I have gotten into a few discussions about gender stereotypes with a trans friend of mine. But I have not seen any encouragements to change gender pointed at children - the cases I know had to fight tooth and nail to be taken seriously

There's a saying I've heard that I think sums up how we should deal with GD:

There are two sexes, no genders, and infinite personalities.

I could even agree with that... as long as we can agree that the two sexes are points on a continuum

 

[Treasure Hunter]

No, the term TERF was

You have a cartoon understanding of the situation.

Anyhow, I've answered several of your questions. You haven't answered mine.

Like I said, I plan to offer an alternative option to GAC, so I would never recommend GAC.

So age 6 for your nephew to have the surgery is acceptable or not?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Like I said, I plan to offer an alternative option to GAC, so I would never recommend GAC.

FFS. You aren't with one of those "pray the gay away" churches, are you?

So age 6 for your nephew to have the surgery is acceptable or not?

Your hypothetical scenario isn't reflective of how something like this would actually happen.

 

[icehorse]

Help me out... GAC is Gender Affirming Care? Sorry, I'm not familiar with all the English terms. and GD? is that like body disphoria?

Right on GAC, GD is gender dysphoria.

I think there is important logical inconsistency in your argument. I have stated that I think gender is fluid, but I have not written a single word about my opinions on surgeries and age limits.

My bad, I'm juggling quite a few conversations here, and most of my opponents support GAC drugs and surgeries for kids with GD.

I don't get it... is rape less horrible if no one gets pregnant? Why not protect everyone from rape for a change?

Rape is always horrible. But I would say that men raping women is the worst. If for no other reason than the size and strength disparities that would go hand in hand with not just rape but also related physical assaults.

Listen, I'm with you on the horrors of rape. But letting men into women's prisons is making a bad problem worse.

None that I know of.

I'm sorry, why do you think that's a meaningful argument?

Yes, agreed. Strict segregation of genders, however, has not proven an effective safeguard.

I would agree that we do not currently have perfect solutions. But why make things worse?

Yes, I have gotten into a few discussions about gender stereotypes with a trans friend of mine. But I have not seen any encouragements to change gender pointed at children

Did you watch the video from earlier in the thread. Such "encouragements" are all too frequent.

I could even agree with that... as long as we can agree that the two sexes are points on a continuum

I'll offer up the idea that there are two sexes and then there are rare conditions.

If that's not enough, can you give me an example of "another" sex that isn't just a rare medical condition?

 

[Treasure Hunter]

FFS. You aren't with one of those "pray the gay away" churches, are you?



Your hypothetical scenario isn't reflective of how something like this would actually happen.

I’m not part of any organized religious community.

How are you so sure, except for not having an age 6 nephew named Johnny, the scenario I provided is impossible?

 

[icehorse]

I see no evidence that anyone is being "thrown
under the bus" when trans women disrupt
lesbian meetings. Your metaphor means
something far more onerous than that.

Why is your lack of knowledge on this topic useful?

As for your history of intersectionality, I don't care. What I DO care about is how it's in use today. It's common that academic ideas escape into the world and then take on a life of their own. It's the life of their own that's of immediate concern.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why is your lack of knowledge on this topic useful?

My lack is because you've presented on evidence
that trans women disrupting lesbian meetings
either "throws women under the bus" or actually
occurs in numbers worthy of consideration.
That makes it useful.

As for your history of intersectionality, I don't care.

You questioned my reference to feminism,
believing to be more of the "woke" movement.
I provided evidence to correct your impression.

 

[icehorse]

My lack is because you've presented on evidence
that trans women disrupting lesbian meetings
either "throws women under the bus" or actually
occurs in numbers worthy of consideration.
That makes it useful.

In this debate there are things you ought to know. It's not up to me to provide you with a baseline knowledge of the topic.

You questioned my reference to feminism,
believing to be more of the "woke" movement.
I provided evidence to correct your impression.

Fair enough, it might have been a feminist thing historically, but it's NOW more of a woke thing.

 

[Koldo]

I'm not anti-trans, but I am frequently anti-woke, and pronouns are a dangerous invention of the woke.

When you say that you sound even more anti-trans...

 

[Koldo]

Convicted men are declaring themselves female in order to be sent to women's prisons. This is easily seachable.

Intact men are dclaring themselves female in order to invade lesbian gatherings and demand "dates". Also easily searchable.

What does any of this has to do with pronoun usage?

 

[Firenze]

Biological sex and human sexuality are two distinct topics.

No, they're not. The error you make is not comprehending that the Brain is also a sex organ. So if someone has a penis, but their brain chemistry is wired as female, it is entirely rational to describe them as 'she has a penis'. If only to be respectful and not an angry, uneducated bigot.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

No, they're not. The error you make is not comprehending that the Brain is also a sex organ. So if someone has a penis, but their brain chemistry is wired as female, it is entirely rational to describe them as 'she has a penis'. If only to be respectful and not an angry, uneducated bigot.

Which are the gender chemicals produced by the brain?

 

[Firenze]

Which are the gender chemicals produced by the brain?

Happy to educate you.

Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation

Sexual identity and sexual orientation are independent components of a person’s sexual identity. These dimensions are most often in harmony with each other and with an individual’s genital sex, although not always. The present review discusses ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The highlight - "The regional brain differences that result from the interaction between hormones and developing brain cells are assumed to be the major basis of sex differences in a wide spectrum of adult behaviours, such as sexual behaviour, aggression and cognition, as well as gender identity and sexual orientation."

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Happy to educate you.

Neurobiology of gender identity and sexual orientation

Sexual identity and sexual orientation are independent components of a person’s sexual identity. These dimensions are most often in harmony with each other and with an individual’s genital sex, although not always. The present review discusses ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The highlight - "The regional brain differences that result from the interaction between hormones and developing brain cells are assumed to be the major basis of sex differences in a wide spectrum of adult behaviours, such as sexual behaviour, aggression and cognition, as well as gender identity and sexual orientation."

“… are assumed to be…”

This is how to determine causation? Assumption?

 

[Firenze]

“… are assumed to be…”

This is how to determine causation? Assumption?

Assumptions in science is like Theory in science. They are based on the totality of existing evidence and of course always subject to revision as new data is discovered. If you didn't know that, then again - happy to educate you. If you did know it - then you're being disingenuous.

 

[Tamino]

Right on GAC, GD is gender dysphoria.

OK good to know.

My bad, I'm juggling quite a few conversations here, and most of my opponents support GAC drugs and surgeries for kids with GD.

I am actually quite concerned that live-changing processes should be carefully considered. Hormone blockers are a wonderful way of winning some time.

Rape is always horrible. But I would say that men raping women is the worst. If for no other reason than the size and strength disparities that would go hand in hand with not just rape but also related physical assaults.

Strength disparities do not just exist between genders. Rape is always a physical assault. I imagine that it's horrible for any victim, and I would not dare to classify anybody's level of trauma.

Listen, I'm with you on the horrors of rape. But letting men into women's prisons is making a bad problem worse.

I think that you are, like, soooo much ahead of yourself. Right now, changing gender is still a rather complicated procedure. Trans women experience a lot of discrimination... some of it from other women, and plenty of men are still far too caught up in weird machismo to ever take a female identity... even if it would give them an advantage. Anyone who is announcing a change of gender during a trial to get into a different prison would be under a lot of scrutiny, I imagine. I really don't see that becoming a widespread phenomenon.

I'm sorry, why do you think that's a meaningful argument?

Then why did you think that your statement was a meaningful argument? It was just a claim. I am not sure what exactly is going on where you live... but where I live, the concern of women's shelters was brought up, and found to be a minor concern since shelters can decide who comes in on an individual basis. And in general, trans people are more likely to be vicitms rather than offenders

Did you watch the video from earlier in the thread. Such "encouragements" are all too frequent.

I didn't. is there a good selection of meaningful statistical data I can check instead?

I'll offer up the idea that there are two sexes and then there are rare conditions.

If that's not enough, can you give me an example of "another" sex that isn't just a rare medical condition?

I would not call it different sexes, but rather a mix of factors that leads to a variety of phenotypes. There's the genetics, and variations from the XX /XY are rare but a regular phenomenon (0,2%). Then there are the hormones, that can totally shape someone's phenotype even independent of their genetics. And then there are all the little variations that make up the human spectrum. Different sized genitals, different body size, different expression of secondary markers like face shapes etc. - we're all on a spectrum somewhere, between what is considered male or female bodies. And that's only bodies... when you throw psychology and gender identity into the mix, it gets indefinitely more complicated.

I don't think that is helps if we try to force every human strictly into one of two boxes. It just enforces the stereotypes that we'd like to soften up.
And in the end, the first right and responsibility to decide on their own identity lies with a person themselves.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Assumptions in science is like Theory in science. They are based on the totality of existing evidence and of course always subject to revision as new data is discovered. If you didn't know that, then again - happy to educate you. If you did know it - then you're being disingenuous.

I realize you weren’t addressing me, but I disagree with your *assumption* that the brain is like a sex organ, and therefore reject your label as an “angry, uneducated bigot” for not agreeing with your *assumption*.

Neuroscience - assume the mind emerges from the brain and then assume any associated brain activity is the root cause of any behavior. Truly profound stuff.