Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Only to those who want to remain in the dark.
By the way, the "Dark Ages" weren't dark or dumb. They even knew better regarding some things than those today such as Biblical literalists.
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"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
By the way, the "Dark Ages" weren't dark or dumb. They even knew better regarding some things than those today such as Biblical literalists.
Most forms in Australia do (or did). Although they usually ask sex not gender (I learnt the hard way it's not a yes or no answer). But I haven't filled out any forms for years so maybe it has changed.
Is sex and gender the same thing?
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
This age of darkness is bigger than the “Dark Ages”. You have no idea what’s possible. We can and must do better SW.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
No.
They are not the same thing:
Sex refers to “the different biological and physiological characteristics of males and females, such as reproductive organs, chromosomes, hormones, etc.”
Gender refers to "the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles and relationships of and between groups of women and men.
Sex and gender - Gender Matters - www.coe.int
Sexologist John Money pioneered the concept of a distinction between biological sex and gender identity in 1955.[16][17] Madison Bentley had already defined gender as the "socialized obverse of sex" a decade earlier, in 1945.
Sex–gender distinction - Wikipedia
Sex is a multidimensional biological construct based on anatomy, physiology, genetics, and hormones.
Gender can be broadly defined as a multidimensional construct that encompasses gender identity and expression, as well as social and cultural expectations about status, characteristics, and behavior as they are associated with certain sex traits.
Sex & Gender
What are Sex & Gender? And why do they matter in health research? Understanding sex and gender is critical to understanding human health and disease.
- In the study of human subjects, the term sex should be used as a classification, generally as male or female, according to the reproductive organs and functions that derive from the chromosomal complement [generally XX for female and XY for male].
- In the study of human subjects, the term gender should be used to refer to a person's self-representation as male or female, or how that person is responded to by social institutions on the basis of the individual's gender presentation.
What Do We Mean By Sex and Gender?
As we pursue our work at Women's Health Research at Yale, it is particularly important to use language that captures the different concepts of sex and gender so
medicine.yale.edu
Treasure Hunter
Well-Known Member
You must not live in California. Go to the vet, they ask for a cat’s gender identity, and yes, non-binary is an option.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
No, I do not.
I would substitute masculine and feminine for male and female when it comes to gender discussions.
But why not drop gender altogether and acknowledge that there are infinite personalities? Why can't we just accept tomboys and effeminate boys and their individual personalities?
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Why?
What?
Are you insane?
There are over 100 genders and you want to just drop them like a hot potato?
How Many Genders Are There? 2024 Gender Identity List
Updated 2024 list of gender identities and terms people use when identifying themselves and talking about gender.
www.sexualdiversity.org
I know not about you, But i do not care a single fleas fart about a persons gender, sex, political affiliation, religion, race, ethicality, etc.
I pay attention to how they treat me and mine.
How they treat their pets.
Their mother.
Wait staff.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I do that with science to help guide me. Amd science, whether or not you want to accept this, supports the practice of medically assisted transition for thise with persistent and profound gender dysohoria.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Who doesn't other than hardline Conservatives who believe there must be a rigid divide between men and womem?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Bull****.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Medical offices around here will often ask your gender identity and birth sex.
It definitely does not happen at the vet.
But it is up to you to support your claims.
Whether inability or refusal to do so is significant.
Count your lucky stars for
the gift that keeps on giving.
Tamino
Active Member
Everyone has a right to happiness and safety and we should make sure that one person's rights don't impact another person's - yes, we can absolutely agree on that. A minority of people cannot claim rights that would severly impact the majority... but the concerns for a majority may not be used to suppress the rights of a minority, either. So we need data, we need compromises, we need careful monitoring.
Check out this source... you may have to run it through a translator. It addresses exactly the three areas of concern you had mentioned - locker rooms, women's shelters and prisons. All institutions report that it is currently a non-issue and can be solved on a case-by-case basis. German law even has a paragraph concerning prisons already, saying that if the sex or gender of a person is under question, the question on which prison they go to is to be solved on the individual case, no general rule.
Transfrauen - weiblich genug für den Frauenbereich?
Das geplante Selbstbestimmungsgesetz soll es ermöglichen, das Geschlecht im Pass selbst festzulegen. Die Einführung wird von einer teils harschen Debatte begleitet - und der Frage: Sollten auch Transfrauen Zugang zu Frauenbereichen haben? Wie Justiz, Frauenhäuser und Schwimmbäder damit umgehen.
One is too many.
Consider that surgeries don't just happen in the name of trans-sexual transition. there's still the problem of intersex children that get operated on to make them fit better in either the male or female box... usually without asking that child about their wishes.
And for a transsexual child, being denied GAC during puberty, it can be really traumatizing: if you feel your body changing in a way that you don't want it to.
So when it comes to surgeries for minors... there's always a certain chance of getting it wrong. Either you wait to long, and the person is unhappy for the rest of their lives because puberty changed their bodies... or you intervene to early and the person is unhappy when they reconsider their identity.
So my stance on trans kids is actually this:
1. battle gender stereotypes. On this we agreen, I think. If people don't feel like they have to fit into one of two boxes in their behavior, dress etc, then maybe those "tomboys" and "effeminate boys" you are talking about will feel comfortable in their cis identity, and the danger of the "mutilated gay kid", as you so charmingly put it, is reduced... since they feel comfortable to express their gender traits independent of their body. (my wife is a bit like that... she has a lot of behavioral "male" traits, but is quite happy in her female body. And since I don't expect her to be a pretty little housewife it works out fine). It also helps non-binary and intersex people.
2. allow hormone blockers. Those are a great way of postponing a decision without puberty kicking in an driving bodily changes
3. make support and counseling available for both the children and their parents, so that no decision in either direction is being made in haste or under pressure. Decisions should be made on an individual case basis.
4. If in doubt, let the person decide who lives in that body.
I believe that this is EXACTLY what I was trying to convey?
Imagine, for a simplified model, a line with two markers on it. one marker is is labelled "average female phenotype", the other as "average male phenotype". if you look at where bodies fit on that line, you will find a lot of dots clustered around the two "average" markers, and then a few rarer dots closer to the center.
But it's still simplified, since it can sometimes be very difficult to determine someone's place on that line, or the exact "division point" between male and female, since it is not just one trait you'd measure, but multiple layers (genes, hormones, organs...). Someone with a perfectly male genome can have a female phenotype if their bodies don't recognize testosterone, so the best you could do is "somewhere in the middle or a bit of both"
Voila: continuum.
no, I think that's exactly the relevant topic.
Thank you, I'm trying.
"Should be" takes time to become "there now".
There's a whole lotta scripture to be unlearned.
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It's also up to me to spot ignorance or sea lioning when I see it.
Hey @Tamino -
I agree with most of your post #274.
I would disagree that hormone blockers are safe.
I would agree that phenotypes are on a continuum, but not biological sex.
I agree with most of your post #274.
I would disagree that hormone blockers are safe.
I would agree that phenotypes are on a continuum, but not biological sex.
Yes, to me this is the trickiest aspect. IF somehow we knew that a GD kid going thru puberty was DEFINITELY going to continue to feel wrong about their body into adulthood, then the more extreme measures of GAC would be more acceptable. But that's a HUGE "IF". The reality is that we just don't know. Many kids with extreme GD grow out of it.
Accusing me of trolling you, eh.
Such unprovoked hostility in a post.
Well, I must correct your error.
You portray all ignorance as a bad thing.
But in reality, it might or might not be.
You made unsupported claims, which is bad.
Now knowing of any evidence supporting them,
I asked for evidence, which is my good ignorance.
I have provided evidence across many threads. It is there for you to find. It's easy.
As for unsupported claims, my questions to you are this: Are YOU the arbiter of what is common knowledge? If you are ignorant on a topic, do YOU get to decide to slow the conversation down to your level at everyone else's expense?
Yes, you believe you have.
But much of it is dubious & even irrelevant.
Nor was it used in a cogent argument. Your
arguments have been more a train-of-thought
series of histrionic complaints about trans folk.
Calling us "misogynists"....terms like "throwing
women under the bus"....ad hominems, poetic
metaphor, & a paucity of public policy proposals.
Addressing your posts is like nailing Jello to a wall.