"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Treasure Hunter]

Defending the rights, freedom, and equality of others isn't "hyper political", but if anything is, it's trying to curtail the rights, freedom, and equality of others based solely on goofy religious/superstitious nonsense.

Again, in your view, what is the youngest age a child should be allowed to undergo full gender transition surgery?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Here's a straightforward answer. The irrational fear of using unisex restrooms is the sign of a limited intellect. Enlightened countries have used unisex restrooms for decades. Rapes and sexual assaults do not occur in them. My wife and daughters used unisex restrooms in Austria, Germany, and Switzerland - and nobody had a problem with it. Amazingly, these countries have a much lower overall rate of sex crimes than the US. Have you bothered to find out why that is? It's because the US is full of sexually repressed and frightened little people like you that are obsessed with what people do in their bedrooms as well as restrooms. Your ignorance of the broad continuum on which sexuality resides no doubt informs your bigotry.

You are definitely barking up the wrong tree.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Again, in your view, what is the youngest age a child should be allowed to undergo full gender transition surgery?

@Shadow Wolf @9-10ths_Penguin

 

[Shadow Wolf]

@Shadow Wolf @9-10ths_Penguin

What do you mean by "full gender transition"? The full, entire process if the medical route is taken can often take many years.
However, as I assume you mean genital surgery I agree with the Standards of Care with puberty blocking meds for treatment for minors along with socially transitioning with therapy. But I can see a case being made for younger, such as if the social transition was completed years ago.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

What do you mean by "full gender transition"? The full, entire process if the medical route is taken can often take many years.
However, as I assume you mean genital surgery I agree with the Standards of Care with puberty blocking meds for treatment for minors along with socially transitioning with therapy. But I can see a case being made for younger, such as if the social transition was completed years ago.

I mean specifically genital surgery. What is the youngest age a child should be allowed to have this surgery? @McBell

 

[Firenze]

Uhh... did you intend to reply to me? Where did I say I had any problem with unisex restrooms? I'm not the one who takes issue with trans people using the restrooms that correspond with how they identify, so how am I the one who's "sexually repressed and frightened"? And how is defending transgendered people "bigotry"? So I'm assuming you simply responded to the wrong post. Otherwise your reading comprehension is ****-poor.

No, I sought to respond to Twilight Hue. But yeah, my reading comprehension could still be poor. Certainly my posting ability is. In hindsight it might have been wiser to wait more than 4 days after CABG surgery to post anything....

 

[Father Heathen]

Again, in your view, what is the youngest age a child should be allowed to undergo full gender transition surgery?

It would depend on the individual patient and their psychiatric evaluation. Certainly old enough to fully understand and communicate their condition.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

It would depend on the individual patient and their psychiatric evaluation. Certainly old enough to fully understand and communicate their condition.

Assume the psychiatric evaluation determines the child is otherwise normal except for severe distress due to strong identification with other gender. Assume the child understands their condition.

You are the policy maker in charge. What is the youngest age you’d approve for genital remove surgery?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It would depend on the individual patient and their psychiatric evaluation. Certainly old enough to fully understand and communicate their condition.

What's frustrating, if high schooler little Johnny wants to get shot at and blown up in war he's showered with pride and praise. If he wants to get his brains bashed in playing football he'll have some celebrity status at home for awhile. But if little Johnny says "I'm really Judy" then suddenly the child can't know, is too young to understand and is probably making a mistake.

 

[icehorse]

Denies them access to the identity they feel is their true self

Do we all get to "access" the identities that we feel are our true selves? I think we do not. That is not some sort of right.

We do not, for example, confirm to people with anorexia that they are fat and need to lose more weight. We do NOT confirm people's dangerous fantasies.

Some people are trans women and some are trans men. We should help them live their best lives. But we must do this without supporting misogynistic and/or homophobic solutions.

Yes, absolutely

Ok, so you think gender is fluid. Now let's consider kids going thru puberty. Puberty is very uncomfortable for almost all kids. Couple that with the fact that at this age cognitive development is incomplete, social pressures are high, and logical thinking is impaired by raging hormones.

Given all of this, you think that kids with GD know for sure that they are in the wrong body that we should allow doctors to perform irreversible, dangerous, interventions - and now add on to that your belief that they might well just change their mind because (you think), gender is fluid?

Great! Then we're fine, and nobody needs to have their genitals publicly inspected or hand in a genetic test to prove who they are

Have you heard of "self-id"? This horrible idea seems to be sweeping across Europe, it will probably come to the US all too soon. The idea is that a person can self-identify as whatever sex they choose, change their minds as often as they want to, and no other action is necessary. One result of this is that criminal men who have been convicted and are about to be sentenced declare themselves to be women. So they are put in women's prisons where they go on rape sprees. Similar things happen in shelters and restrooms and locker rooms. This puts ALL WOMEN at heightened risk of assault and rape. ALL WOMEN.

This is a thorny problem to be sure. But we need to find solutions that help trans people live good lives, without putting ALL WOMEN at risk.

 

[icehorse]

Then with post 15 you pulled a bait and switch over to anti-trans rants.
Which is what I predicted in post 5

So it appears I "got it" before you revealed it.

No bait and switch intended, can you clarify how you think I did that? thanks

 

[Father Heathen]

Assume the psychiatric evaluation determines the child is otherwise normal except for severe distress due to strong identification with other gender. Assume the child understands their condition.

You are the policy maker in charge. What is the youngest age you’d approve for genital remove surgery?

Lacking the necessary education and expertise, I would resign from my policy making position. Policy should be made by professionals from the relevant fields. I'm not going to pull out an arbitrary number. Also, "genital remove surgery" is a misrepresentation.

 

[Treasure Hunter]

Lacking the necessary education and expertise, I would resign from my policy making position. Policy should be made by professionals from the relevant fields. I'm not going to pull out an arbitrary number. Also, "genital remove surgery" is a misrepresentation.

The child has already cleared the psychiatric assessment. It’s a moral judgment at this point, which you’ve been more than willing to impart on this issue. You said it’s about freedom and to oppose is about power, right?

Why now are you all of a sudden disqualified to make a determination?

 

[Revoltingest]

What's frustrating, if high schooler little Johnny wants to get shot at and blown up in war he's showered with pride and praise.

It was worse when I was a high schooler.
Government decided for you whether you
were to get shot at & blown up in war.
Well....only for males who weren't in the
clergy or had Bill Clinton's connections,
or Trump's bone spurs, or Biden's "asthma".

 

[icehorse]

I've never known a trans person who's done this. Keeping up a lie like this would make their lives more difficult than it already is - especially in the relationship department

I think is a key point.

I admit I'm about to make a course grained categorization scheme. I think we can say that there are two types of trans people:

1 - Traditional trans people who want to look like people of the opposite sex.

2 - New-fangled "trans" people who might or might not actually be trans, but who want to disrupt the system either for LOLs or for personal benefit. Sometimes these people fall into the gender-**** category. An example is criminals who declare themselves female to be sent to women's prisons.

IMO, category 1 is pretty benign. but category two is very dangerous and destructive and it's growing. So when it comes to category 2, we have a thorny problem. Despite what the strawman artists here on RF like to spout, I don't think anyone here is proposing gender inspection police, doh! But category 2 has proven to put women and girls at risk.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I mean specifically genital surgery. What is the youngest age a child should be allowed to have this surgery? @McBell

Are you talking consent or medical determinations?

On the consent side, I agree with general standard we have for medical consent here in Ontario:

- anyone "able to understand treatment information and reasonably foresee consequences" of their treatment can consent to it. For something like surgery, this is deemed to be the case at 16 unless there's evidence to the contrary.

- under that age, consent can be provided by a "substitute decision maker" (usually a parent.

- even without SDM consent, a child under 16 can consent to surgery that's clearly in their best interest.

On the medical side, I don't know the precise medical indications for gender affirmation surgery, but I assume that it wouldn't be medically indicated until the patient is a a given level of growth or development.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Ugh....once again there is little to no common ground.

I recall on another thread @icehorse expressing concern over the mental wellbeing of transgender kids. That's something that can be agreed on: In a civil society folks ought to not bully children.

I think maybe some sort of consensus could be arrived at that could be helpful for transgender folks, but the fearmongering from media and politicians prevent this.

So now we have people concerned more over the pronouns of penises and people using certain bathrooms who don't look like the little sign on the door.

 

[icehorse]

I did not deny any facts.
I merely pointed out that you have been reduced to grasping at straws.

And I must say, you rather suck at that as well.
(no pun intended)

To deny the situation of lesbians being put under pressure, appears to be both misogynistic and homophobic? Can you clarify why you seem to think this problem isn't important?

 

[icehorse]

The whole problem cited in the link is that it's about
how someone "feels" about an anecdotal (unverified)
experience with another person. Is the problem merely
internal (how she feels) or external (actual coercion)?
There's nothing objective in there.

FWIW, various lesbian meetings have been disrupted by trans women. And such pressure is a part of how the derogatory term "TERF" came into existence.

This should be obvious, but here goes: as a rule, lesbians are not interested in having sex with people who have penises.

 

[Revoltingest]

I recall on another thread @icehorse expressing concern over the mental wellbeing of transgender kids. That's something that can be agreed on: In a civil society folks ought to not bully children.

Aye, that's included in the "little" rather than the "no" common ground.

I think maybe some sort of consensus could be arrived at that could be helpful for transgender folks, but the fearmongering from media and politicians prevent this.

So now we have people concerned more over the pronouns of penises and people using certain bathrooms who don't look like the little sign on the door.

I expect consensus to happen far down the road,
as there is ever more experience with transitioning.