"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Shadow Wolf]

I read the study and found it to be confusing.
However it seems to me that the issue is about women feeling safe and comfortable in womens' toilets and change rooms, and that is not going to happen when people who look like men are using the womens' facilities.

And yet lots of cis women are comfortable with trans women using thise facilities.

 

[Father Heathen]

Interesting problem we have.
If only the situation was always as clear as that.
I imagine neither you nor @icehorse would want someone who looks like that to be using the women's toilets. (Is that right @icehorse ?)
And if the person in question looked like that and identified as a woman? What do you think? Should they be using the male or female toilets?
It sounds like you think they should be using the women's toilets and change rooms if they looked like that and identified as a woman.

That's a rather nonsensical scenario. A desperate grasping for straws.

 

[Brian2]

And yet lots of cis women are comfortable with trans women using thise facilities.

It's good that many cis women are comfortable with that. It's one of those things that would not even be noticed most of the time by cis women in those facilities. Sometimes I guess it has been a problem however, and it is easy to see why some women would be upset at times.
I wonder if assaults etc decreased for trans men and women under the non discrimination law.

 

[Brian2]

That's a rather nonsensical scenario. A desperate grasping for straws.

I just asked a question.
Do you think that a person who looked like that should be allowed to use the womens' toilets?
Certainly the guy who was doing the selfies did not think so.
It would be good if there was a way to sort this problem and offend nobody.
Any ideas about what that would be?

 

[Tamino]

It would be good if there was a way to sort this problem and offend nobody.
Any ideas about what that would be?

If you really want to make a change, I'd go with Unisex toilets. A shared space to wash your hands for people who don't care, additional single rooms for people who'd feel uncomfortable for some reason.

But then some men might be offended that they need to sit down when pissing, or women would be offended because they want to paint their face in a gender-segregated space... Idk, why is this such an issue again?

I know, that's a whataboutism, but I really feel like there's more pressing points. Like providing suitable toilets for people with handicaps, so they can go out in public without worries. Or making all public space a safe space, so women don't feel like they need a place to hide from "bad men"(TM)

 

[Brian2]

If you really want to make a change, I'd go with Unisex toilets. A shared space to wash your hands for people who don't care, additional single rooms for people who'd feel uncomfortable for some reason.

But then some men might be offended that they need to sit down when pissing, or women would be offended because they want to paint their face in a gender-segregated space... Idk, why is this such an issue again?

I know, that's a whataboutism, but I really feel like there's more pressing points. Like providing suitable toilets for people with handicaps, so they can go out in public without worries. Or making all public space a safe space, so women don't feel like they need a place to hide from "bad men"(TM)

I think it is such an issue because many cis women are protective of their children and of themselves around strange males, especially in places where these women want and expect some privacy from the male sex, regardless of if those males claim to be females.
Then there is the view of trans women who want to be accepted as women.
Unisex toilets might help, with more private areas also for those who want that.
Consideration and understanding on the part of all involved might also help, but that is hard to legislate. Utopia has not arrived yet.

 

[Tamino]

I think it is such an issue because many cis women are protective of their children and of themselves around strange males,

That's kinda discriminatory against males who are perfectly decent beings. Again: if we could just battle harmful gender stereotypes and and combat violence against women in general, they hopefully wouldn't be so scared.
Also, it's statistically a stupid strategy... They are far more likely to face violence from familiar males.

especially in places where these women want and expect some privacy from the male sex,

Again: if males are behaving like decent human beings I don't feel like I need privacy away from them

regardless of if those males claim to be females.

Usually, nobody is claiming anything. I don't make a declaration if I'm using a bathroom... I just walk in, and if my outward appearance is close enough to the local stereotype, I'll pass

Then there is the view of trans women who want to be accepted as women.

That's because they are women, by my definition.

Unisex toilets might help, with more private areas also for those who want that.
Consideration and understanding on the part of all involved might also help, but that is hard to legislate.

Yes, exactly. Consideration, understanding, trying our best not to exclude anyone... Neither the traumatized woman who's fearful of a male gendered appearance, nor the trans woman doing her best to find an identity and body she can be comfortable in.

Utopia has not arrived yet.

And in won't, unless we keep trying.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Aaaaand, we're back to punching up vs. punching down.

This trans man would risk having to punch up, fine with me.

There's no punching. He's just looking for a place to pee because he had coffee recently.

But it's not fine to force ALL women to potentially have to punch up when men come into women's safe spaces.

And this is why people are saying that your position is anti-trans:

- trans women are women. A trans women using the women's washroom is not "men coming into women's safe spaces."
- even though you fail to acknowledge it, every viable alternative involves victimizing trans women in some way.

 

[Father Heathen]

I just asked a question.
Do you think that a person who looked like that should be allowed to use the womens' toilets?
Certainly the guy who was doing the selfies did not think so.
It would be good if there was a way to sort this problem and offend nobody.
Any ideas about what that would be?

This should help: Debunking Bathroom Myths

 

[Firenze]

Aaaaand, we're back to punching up vs. punching down.

This trans man would risk having to punch up, fine with me.

But it's not fine to force ALL women to potentially have to punch up when men come into women's safe spaces.

In what bizarre world do you live in where this trans man would utilize the privacy of a stall - and be assaulted? Do you know men who are peeking through the cracks in restroom stalls to see if they can find a vagina somewhere - or are you simply projecting??

 

[icehorse]

Forcing women to share restrooms with bearded men will make them feel uncomfortable and unsafe. They have no way of knowing he's a transman with a vagina. Isn't that punching down?

When a person with a beard is in a women's safe space the women don't know whether:

a- it's a biological male - which is statistically far more likely
b- it's a trans man - far less likely

So common sense for these women is that they might be FORCED to punch up if they are assaulted.

We're admittedly going down a rabbit hole here, but here's one entirely predictable outcome of "self-id" laws:

Transgender women criminality shows male pattern | Fair Play For Women

Transgender women in prison exhibit a male-type pattern of criminality, new data confirms. Crimes match birth sex not gender identity. So....

fairplayforwomen.com

 

[icehorse]

In what bizarre world do you live in where this trans man would utilize the privacy of a stall - and be assaulted? Do you know men who are peeking through the cracks in restroom stalls to see if they can find a vagina somewhere - or are you simply projecting??

How on earth did you make leap to that scenario?

 

[icehorse]

You're making up a problem that doesn't exist when there are real problems out there that need to be addressed.

Please send me a link to all the world's problems so that can make sure to focus only on the one's that exist.

Or alternatively, let me buy stock in your company because being aware of all the problems that exist must be very useful indeed.



(And BTW, there are pretty direct links from the agendas of trans activists to curtailing free speech, and protecting free speech is arguably the most important issue a person can focus on.)

 

[icehorse]

And this is why people are saying that your position is anti-trans:

- trans women are women. A trans women using the women's washroom is not "men coming into women's safe spaces."
- even though you fail to acknowledge it, every viable alternative involves victimizing trans women in some way.

Why do you insist on spreading this lie? Do you think that in the long run trying to force society to swallow this obviously false claim will benefit trans people? I think it will foster ill will.

To be clear: trans women are NOT women, trans women are trans women.

==

As for your second point, we're seeing more and more men - who have no interest in being trans - self id as women to take advantage of women, see the study I just linked to. I do not believe anyone on this forum is claiming that trans women are more violent than most men.

As for victimizing, how many freaking times do I have to suggest that solutions must be non-zero-sum? If you do not understand what that means, feel free to ask.

 

[Firenze]

How on earth did you make leap to that scenario?

It's your leap. You think a trans man who presents as male walks into a restroom and gets assaulted. They're going into a private stall to do their business. Why do you think they might get assaulted?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why do you insist on spreading this lie?

Your discomfort with the truth doesn't make it a lie.

Do you think that in the long run trying to force society to swallow this obviously false claim will benefit trans people? I think it will foster ill will.

To be clear: trans women are NOT women, trans women are trans women.

Trans women are women.

==

As for your second point, we're seeing more and more men - who have no interest in being trans - self id as women to take advantage of women, see the study I just linked to. I do not believe anyone on this forum is claiming that trans women are more violent than most men.

As for victimizing, how many freaking times do I have to suggest that solutions must be non-zero-sum? If you do not understand what that means, feel free to ask.

Please tell us more about the "non-zero-sum" option you had in mind.

If you're going to continue the charade of saying that you haven't thought about options, then now is the time for you to stop, think of one, and demonstrate to everyone that it's even possible to both cater to anti-trans people AND give trans people a place where they can pee in peace.

 

[Revoltingest]

Good ole fashioned "I'm just trying to protect them" bigotry.

Trans women (ie, men pretending to be women) must be
registered & regulated, perhaps even prevented from ever
being, because they pose such great risk of assaulting real
women in the restrooms that are their hunting grounds.
Statistics show that this is very common, with as many as
4 yearly occurrences of a real woman or a lesbian feeling
ill at ease in the presence of one of these trans woman.

Research has yet to discover what motivates men to
assume the appearance of women in order to assault
them, given that even as un-transformed men they
could easily assault women. But to address the problem,
Republicans have proposed legislation to require them
to have a scarlet PTBW (Pretending To Be Woman)
emblazoned on their forehead. Restroom & locker room
police can monitor who enters, with regular audits
performed by checking genitalia for compliance.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Trans women (ie, men pretending to be women) must be
registered & regulated, perhaps even prevented from ever
being, because they pose such great risk of assaulting real
women in the restrooms that are their hunting grounds.
Statistics show that this is very common, with as many as
4 yearly occurrences of a real woman or a lesbian feeling
ill at ease in the presence of one of these trans woman.

Research has yet to discover what motivates men to
assume the appearance of women in order to assault
them, given that even as un-transformed men they
could easily assault women. But to address the problem,
Republicans have proposed legislation to require them
to have a scarlet PTBW (Pretending To Be Woman)
emblazoned on their forehead.

Too sciency, informed, logical (especially that "even as untransformed...easily assualt women" bit) and where are the gay demons needing protected from something worse than them? And what of the invisible sky man going "who's your daddy?"

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's good that many cis women are comfortable with that. It's one of those things that would not even be noticed most of the time by cis women in those facilities. Sometimes I guess it has been a problem however, and it is easy to see why some women would be upset at times.
I wonder if assaults etc decreased for trans men and women under the non discrimination law.

Yes, assualts against us tend to go down when we get those policies.
Amd it's discomfort worthy of consideration like a white pinhead getting uncomfortable and uneasy around a black person.

 

[Father Heathen]

"Her penis". An issue fraught with peril? More like frot with peril, am I right?