"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[Father Heathen]

Zooming out, we need to find compassionate solutions for trans people. But we should not negatively impact the rights of ALL WOMEN to do so. To negatively impact ALL WOMEN is misogynistic, wouldn't you say?

Why didn't you answer his question? This guy was born female, and he would obviously frighten and upset a lot of women by being forced to use the restroom of his birth sex. It's a point that keeps being raised, but transphobes never provide an adequate answer.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Zooming out, we need to find compassionate solutions for trans people. But we should not negatively impact the rights of ALL WOMEN to do so. To negatively impact ALL WOMEN is misogynistic, wouldn't you say?

Please answer my question.

You're proposing that spaces like locker rooms and prisons be segregated based on the person's genitalia at birth. Well, that would put trans men and cis women together.

(If you're being honest with your arguments, of course. I still get the sense that your goal is to remove trans people from public spaces generally, which is why you aren't addressing the issue of where trans men should change or pee)

 

[icehorse]

Why didn't you answer his question? This guy was born female, and he would obviously frighten and upset a lot of women by being forced to use the restroom of his birth sex. It's a point that keeps being raised, but transphobes never provide an adequate answer.

As I said, we need to find compassionate solutions for trans people. What part of my answer that you just quoted was confusing to you?

Do you understand the difference between punching up and punching down?

And ffs, stop with the transphobic bull****, it's slanderous and dishonest. Do you think allowing bad men into women's safe spaces is going to end up benefiting trans people in the long run?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why didn't you answer his question? This guy was born female, and he would obviously frighten and upset a lot of women by being forced to use the restroom of his birth sex. It's a point that keeps being raised, but transphobes never provide an adequate answer.

Here's what I think the ultimate goal is here. @icehorse - correct me if I'm wrong:

- the rule says that trans women have to use the men's washroom/locker room/etc., but out of fear of violence, they don't - they just stay home.

- the rule says that trans men have to use the women's washroom/locker room/etc., but out of fear of the reaction and harassment if they were to try, they don't - they just stay home.

Suddenly, trans people are excluded from all public spaces, workplaces, etc., where they might have to pee or change clothes.

That's your goal, isn't it, @icehorse ?

 

[Father Heathen]

Please answer my question.

You're proposing that spaces like locker rooms and prisons be segregated based on the person's genitalia at birth. Well, that would put trans men and cis women together.

(If you're being honest with your arguments, of course. I still get the sense that your goal is to remove trans people from public spaces generally, which is why you aren't addressing the issue of where trans men should change or pee)

There is also the problem with cis women who have been harassed and falsely accused of being trans due to being "too masculine". Are they proposing genital inspections before admittance into public restrooms?

 

[Father Heathen]

As I said, we need to find compassionate solutions for trans people. What part of my answer that you just quoted was confusing to you?

Do you understand the difference between punching up and punching down?

And ffs, stop with the transphobic bull****, it's slanderous and dishonest. Do you think allowing bad men into women's safe spaces is going to end up benefiting trans people in the long run?

Transgendered people have been using the restrooms of the gender they identify with for as long as there have been transgendered people, so where is this "bad men" epidemic? Also, the idea that men would go through difficult medical transitioning - and deal with the social struggles that come with it - just to prey on women? Come the **** on now.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

There is also the problem with cis women who have been harassed and falsely accused of being trans due to being "too masculine". Are they proposing genital inspections before admittance into public restrooms?

It sure seems that for a lot of FARTs, harassment of cis women who don't reflect traditional gender norms is a side benefit, not a bug.

 

[icehorse]

You're proposing that spaces like locker rooms and prisons be segregated based on the person's genitalia at birth. Well, that would put trans men and cis women together.

I'm not proposing that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not proposing that.

What are you proposing, then?

 

[icehorse]

Transgendered people have been using the restrooms of the gender they identify with for as long as there have been transgendered people, so where is this "bad men" epidemic? Also, the idea that men would go through difficult medical transitioning - and deal with the social struggles that come with it - just to prey on women? Come the **** on now.

The notion of legal self-id with no qualifications is relatively new. And bad men are taking advantage of it.

And yes OF COURSE bad men will take advantage of new laws and norms to prey on women, doh! No medical transitioning is necessary, a simple verbal declaration is all a man needs.

 

[icehorse]

What are you proposing, then?

In your world is it wrong to criticize a bad policy if you don't have a better solution?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

In your world is it wrong to criticize a bad policy if you don't have a better solution?

So you aren't suggesting any changes? Good to hear.

 

[Soandso]

In your world is it wrong to criticize a bad policy if you don't have a better solution?

Anyone can criticize. There's nothing special about that. Criticism without constructive feedback is worthless though, not wrong. It's just hot air

 

[icehorse]

Anyone can criticize. There's nothing special about that. Criticism without constructive feedback is worthless though, not wrong. It's just hot air

Tell that to science.

Secondly, do you follow this rule yourself? Do have solutions to all the world's problems? Whenever you make a post here, do you always have a solution in mind?

I'd LOVE to hear how you propose to reverse climate change, the oligarchy, the Israeli / Hamas war, and so on.

==

The first step in finding new solutions is to poke holes in existing ones, doh!

 

[icehorse]

So you aren't suggesting any changes? Good to hear.

It's a thorny problem. But I have offered ways of looking at the problem in the past. I will restate them:

1 - Public policy is usually utilitarian in nature. We should try to find solutions in keeping with that approach.
2 - We should be honest about the problems associated with the current policies.
3 - We should be honest about the values we hope to support in finding better solutions.

 

[icehorse]

== Intermission ==

Zooming out and scanning this thread from a broad perspective, it's striking how much of the thread has been devoted to attacking me personally and thus avoiding engaging with the actual criticisms and ideas.

My debating opponents have displayed a wide range of fallacies including: strawman arguments, ad hominem attacks, slander, distinctions without a difference, red herrings, false dilemmas, and probably a few more.

In my world, when you have a good argument, you don't need to employ fallacies to support it.

 

[Father Heathen]

The notion of legal self-id with no qualifications is relatively new. And bad men are taking advantage of it.

And yes OF COURSE bad men will take advantage of new laws and norms to prey on women, doh! No medical transitioning is necessary, a simple verbal declaration is all a man needs.

What's stopping a man from doing this anyway? To who are they make a verbal declaration to?

 

[McBell]

== Intermission ==

Zooming out and scanning this thread from a broad perspective, it's striking how much of the thread has been devoted to attacking me personally and thus avoiding engaging with the actual criticisms and ideas.

My debating opponents have displayed a wide range of fallacies including: strawman arguments, ad hominem attacks, slander, distinctions without a difference, red herrings, false dilemmas, and probably a few more.

In my world, when you have a good argument, you don't need to employ fallacies to support it.

Cool beans.
Now do the same thing using the same criteria but with your own posts.

 

[icehorse]

Cool beans.
Now do the same thing using the same criteria but with your own posts.

Show me mine, i'll show you your team's. Wanna bet $20 per fallacy?

(Note: that was a rhetorical offer, doh!)

==

But seriously, how about we be careful moving forward?

 

[McBell]

Show me mine, i'll show you your team's. Wanna bet $20 per fallacy?

(Note: that was a rhetorical offer, doh!)

It was a deflection.
People are seldom willing to hold themselves to the same standards they expect from others.