Father Heathen
Veteran Member
So you're actually trying to suggest that supporting trans rights contributes toward violence against women? Seriously?
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"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
Allowing biological males into women's only safe spaces and women's only sporting events is misogynistic. In the case of safe spaces, of course it contributes to violence.
So, are you debating from ignorance or have you researched how many women have been assaulted by men self-id-ing as women and gaining access to women's safe spaces? If it's the latter, then how many assaults are acceptable to you?
Again, I'm all for helping trans people live their best lives... as long as it's not via zero-sum solutions.
Only a handful of people consider transgender to be misogamy. It's an invented problem for what reason I have no idea.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
Have you? You made the claim, thus the burden of proof is upon you.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Looks more like they are trying to attach their agenda to another agenda in a sad attempt to authenticate their agenda.
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
I know the reason. It's an attempt to flip the script and make it look like they're the ones defending against bigotry rather than perpetrating it.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
McBell
Admiral Obvious
US Trans Survey
The U.S. Transgender Survey (USTS) is the largest survey devoted to the lives and experiences of transgender people across the United States. The USTS was created by trans people, for trans people.
www.ustranssurvey.org
i am putting this here so I can more readily find it Feb 7th
Being transgender is not misogynistic.
But many trans activists' agenda points are. Violent men id-ing themselves as women to get into women's safe spaces and selfish men stealing sports victories from women are two examples. Neither of those two practices are required for trans people to live fine lives.
The infamous Liar Thomas is stroking his fragile ego when he competes against women. Disallowing him to compete in this way supports women and doesn't have any meaningful impact on the lives of trans people.
How many instances would convince you? And if I do all the heavy lifting for you, will you apologize?
AFAIC, if you're debating this topic, my claim should be common knowledge. So it does seem as though you're debating from ignorance and using your bleats for citations as a tool for obfuscation.
What makes you imagine that your ignorance on this topic should be the gold standard for what's common knowledge and what's not?
I think you need to google the meaning of misogyny.
And I still have no idea what you mean by trans activist. It's obviously not what I find when I google it and Wikipedia comes up with this Transgender rights movement - Wikipedia
Father Heathen
Veteran Member
informal fallacy: begging the question
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Yeah but what does @icehorse mean by it? I don't think he uses that definition.
Tamino
Active Member
This claim is entirely contradictory to my experience.
Gender segregation is not an effective way of stopping violence against women - millenia of patriarchal societies have amply proven that. Women have been confined to houses, harems, put away under veils, all in the name of protecting them... and guess what: it didn't work. It was only ever an excuse to limit our access to freedom and power.
My safe spaces have always been inclusive.
The women's cafes, the radical left student house (well, shack... But it was comfy), the queer bars: I didn't feel safe because men had no access. I felt safe because misogyny had no access.
I felt safe, because I knew that in these areas the heteronormative world and the patriarchy were kept at bay. No man would disregard my opinions, or feel entitled to make sexual advances... or if he did, he would be stopped by the others.
Safe spaces are not just physical. They are created by community and shared values.
Any of those "violent men posing as a trans woman" you're talking about (I never met one) would have to cross-dress first (many machos would not even dare to do that) and then insinuate himself into this queer or feminist culture and try to pass as one of us. Unlikely. Sure, anything's possible, but in term of risk assessment? Way low.
And as for sports, there are some non-zero-sum ideas already, other than using one's genitals to determine access to sporting events. Leagues are already looking at hormone levels and maximum of testosterone ( sounds complicated to me, but perhaps for world class events). Or you can simply look at their previous times and achievements and classify people into fair competition groups that way. Pretty sure the Paralympics already do that. Perhaps it would make sports more inclusive, too.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Here is an interesting interview that you would probably agree with. It is long but I found it keeps you hooked into listening to more.
I appreciate your post.
But many, many women have different experiences. They don't want intact males to share their locker rooms or their safe houses or their prisons. I'm sure you're not proposing telling those women to just "toughen up" are you?
Would these "many, many women" prefer to share their locker rooms, etc., with trans men?
Zooming out, we need to find compassionate solutions for trans people. But we should not negatively impact the rights of ALL WOMEN to do so. To negatively impact ALL WOMEN is misogynistic, wouldn't you say?
Tamino
Active Member
I still don't think there are even enough trans people around to make for a significant impact
Hell no. I am proposing that we negotiate safe spaces for everyone. I propose that safe spaces are MADE safe by the people who run them, and that we can KEEP everyone safe and comfortable without excluding trans people on principle. We just need to keep an eye on each other (which is kind of the point of the safe space)
How that's supposed to work?
Let's see.
Locker rooms. Well. Provide the option of single booths, and anyone who doesn't want to share is set. Easy.
Safe houses? Every person who comes into a women's shelter that is a safe house, to live there, will be individually vetted anyways and it can be decided on a case-by-case basis if any new person can be admitted in.
Prisons? Same point. Each individual prisoner and their potential social group can be checked in advance and if any woman, due to deep trauma or whatever, is afraid of a transn newcomer, she can be accommodated.
Women's cafes? Well, nobody is gonna check your ID or your genitals, but if you misbehave you will be escorted out.
So...what was the problem again?