"Her penis" - not at all Orwellian - argh

[icehorse]

It was a deflection.
People are seldom willing to hold themselves to the same standards they expect from others.

So, you have an issue with being careful moving forward?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I do care. Most trans individuals also suffer from various other mental and/or emotional issues; autism, eating disorders, phobias, or others. That’s why I think it’s more helpful for them to have real help in dealing with their situation in a wholistic way and helping them become comfortable in their biological body, rather than shoving them through transitioning with life altering drugs or surgeries.

I wasn't shoved into it. If anything I had to shove the healthcare providers along because they were dragging their feet amd very slow to get things done. Buying hormones off the internet changed that real quick amd suddenly they got the ball rolling.
And there is no being comfortable as a male for me. You might as well try to make me a fan of Country music or stop being austic (I don't suffer from that, by the way, it's not a disorder but a tremendous gift and boon in so many ways. We're just different than you is all.) or start running with a different crowd. It ain't gonna happen willingly amd there will be no pleasure or being content. You'd have an equally likely success in convincing me to become a Christian again.
You spend decades feeling dead inside amd tell me you can learn to comfortably live with it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Show me mine, i'll show you your team's. Wanna bet $20 per fallacy?

(Note: that was a rhetorical offer, doh!)

==

But seriously, how about we be careful moving forward?

(Note: I'm a poker player. This isn't the first time you've made my "shove all in" senses tingle)
(Hint: unrealistic and unreasonable bets that are so out of place they can only be explained as a bluff or bad call do)

 

[icehorse]

(Note: I'm a poker player. This isn't the first time you've made my "shove all in" senses tingle)
(Hint: unrealistic and unreasonable bets that are so out of place they can only be explained as a bluff or bad call do)

What parts of "rhetorical" and being careful moving forward were unclear to you?

I might be wrong here, but it appears you are unwilling to be careful and move forward?

 

[InChrist]

I wasn't shoved into it. If anything I had to shove the healthcare providers along because they were dragging their feet amd very slow to get things done. Buying hormones off the internet changed that real quick amd suddenly they got the ball rolling.
And there is no being comfortable as a male for me. You might as well try to make me a fan of Country music or stop being austic (I don't suffer from that, by the way, it's not a disorder but a tremendous gift and boon in so many ways. We're just different than you is all.) or start running with a different crowd. It ain't gonna happen willingly amd there will be no pleasure or being content. You'd have an equally likely success in convincing me to become a Christian again.
You spend decades feeling dead inside amd tell me you can learn to comfortably live with it.

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts and experience.

 

[Brian2]

Why didn't you answer his question? This guy was born female, and he would obviously frighten and upset a lot of women by being forced to use the restroom of his birth sex. It's a point that keeps being raised, but transphobes never provide an adequate answer.

That looks like a male to me.

 

[Revoltingest]

Why didn't you answer his question? This guy was born female, and he would obviously frighten and upset a lot of women by being forced to use the restroom of his birth sex. It's a point that keeps being raised, but transphobes never provide an adequate answer.

I wonder what vitriol a Palestinian trans
woman would receive in this thread?

A Palestinian trans woman's story peels away Israel's pinkwashing veil

From oppressive institutions to social prejudices, MC's ordeal embodies the reality of LGBTQ Palestinians who thought they could find safety in Israel.

www.972mag.com

 

[Father Heathen]

That looks like a male to me.

Exactly, but conservatives believe that he should be forced to use the women's restroom because he was born a female.

 

[icehorse]

Exactly, but conservatives believe that he should be forced to use the women's restroom because he was born a female.

Aaaaand, we're back to punching up vs. punching down.

This trans man would risk having to punch up, fine with me.

But it's not fine to force ALL women to potentially have to punch up when men come into women's safe spaces.

 

[Father Heathen]

Aaaaand, we're back to punching up vs. punching down.

I'm merely stating the conservative POV.

This trans man would risk having to punch up, fine with me.

"Punch up" to whom by doing what?

But it's not fine to force ALL women to potentially have to punch up when men come into women's safe spaces.

Women aren't forced to do anything, accept maybe to allow others to defecate in peace.

 

[Father Heathen]

 

[icehorse]

"Punch up" to whom by doing what?

Really? Okay, I'll slow down...

The trans man you showed, if discovered in a men's room might very well get assaulted. Presumably by larger, stronger people. So this trans man is putting himself in this situation when he goes to a men's room. If he gets assaulted, in that conflict he will be in the position of "punching up", and his attackers will be "punching down", i.e. attacking a weaker, smaller person. That's just the sad reality.

Women aren't forced to do anything, accept maybe to allow others to defecate in peace.

If a bad man goes into a woman's safe space and assault a woman, that woman can either submit or fight back. Either way, she is being forced to do something. And in the woman's case she'll likely be fighting a larger, stronger opponent. So the bad man is "punching down" and the woman being assaulted is punching up.

In general we support people forced to punch up and we abhor people who punch down.

Is that clear?

==

I just saw your post #619. How do you think that would go over in a meeting of women who have been assaulted? that post is positively reprehensible.

 

[John53]

Really? Okay, I'll slow down...

The trans man you showed, if discovered in a men's room might very well get assaulted. Presumably by larger, stronger people. So this trans man is putting himself in this situation when he goes to a men's room. If he gets assaulted, in that conflict he will be in the position of "punching up", and his attackers will be "punching down", i.e. attacking a weaker, smaller person. That's just the sad reality.


If a bad man goes into a woman's safe space and assault a woman, that woman can either submit or fight back. Either way, she is being forced to do something. And in the woman's case she'll likely be fighting a larger, stronger opponent. So the bad man is "punching down" and the woman being assaulted is punching up.

In general we support people forced to punch up and we abhor people who punch down.

Is that clear?

==

I just saw your post #619. How do you think that would go over in a meeting of women who have been assaulted? that post is positively reprehensible.

I really have no idea what your point is.... Women are most likely to be assaulted in their own home by someone they know. That needs to be sorted out.

 

[Father Heathen]

Really? Okay, I'll slow down...

The trans man you showed, if discovered in a men's room might very well get assaulted.

Okay, why? Using the men's restroom makes far more sense than using the women's restroom, where he would obviously freak out women.

Presumably by larger, stronger people. So this trans man is putting himself in this situation when he goes to a men's room. If he gets assaulted, in that conflict he will be in the position of "punching up", and his attackers will be "punching down", i.e. attacking a weaker, smaller person. That's just the sad reality.

What makes you think this is likely, though? How would they even know? But anyway, it sounds like you actually agree that forcing transmen to use the women's restroom because they were born female is a bad idea.

If a bad man goes into a woman's safe space and assault a woman, that woman can either submit or fight back. Either way, she is being forced to do something. And in the woman's case she'll likely be fighting a larger, stronger opponent. So the bad man is "punching down" and the woman being assaulted is punching up.

What's stopping bad men from entering women's restrooms regardless? And again, trans people have already been using the restrooms that align with how they identify for decades, so why isn't it already happening on the scale you think it would?

In general we support people forced to punch up and we abhor people who punch down.

Forcing women to share restrooms with bearded men will make them feel uncomfortable and unsafe. They have no way of knowing he's a transman with a vagina. Isn't that punching down?

Is that clear?

==

I just saw your post #619. How do you think that would go over in a meeting of women who have been assaulted? that post is positively reprehensible.

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, a UCLA study finds.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[icehorse]

I really have no idea what your point is.... Women are most likely to be assaulted in their own home by someone they know. That needs to be sorted out.

Agreed, but how does that relate to this discussion?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? Okay, I'll slow down...

The trans man you showed, if discovered in a men's room might very well get assaulted. Presumably by larger, stronger people. So this trans man is putting himself in this situation when he goes to a men's room. If he gets assaulted, in that conflict he will be in the position of "punching up", and his attackers will be "punching down", i.e. attacking a weaker, smaller person. That's just the sad reality.

Good ole fashioned "I'm just trying to protect them" bigotry.

 

[John53]

Agreed, but how does that relate to this discussion?

You're making up a problem that doesn't exist when there are real problems out there that need to be addressed.

 

[Brian2]

Exactly, but conservatives believe that he should be forced to use the women's restroom because he was born a female.

Interesting problem we have.
If only the situation was always as clear as that.
I imagine neither you nor @icehorse would want someone who looks like that to be using the women's toilets. (Is that right @icehorse ?)
And if the person in question looked like that and identified as a woman? What do you think? Should they be using the male or female toilets?
It sounds like you think they should be using the women's toilets and change rooms if they looked like that and identified as a woman.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Forcing women to share restrooms with bearded men will make them feel uncomfortable and unsafe. They have no way of knowing he's a transman with a vagina. Isn't that punching down?

No link between trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety, study finds

There is no evidence that letting transgender people use public facilities that align with their gender identity increases safety risks, a UCLA study finds.

www.nbcnews.com

I can't wait to see how that study gets dismissed.

 

[Brian2]

I can't wait to see how that study gets dismissed.

I read the study and found it to be confusing.
However it seems to me that the issue is about women feeling safe and comfortable in womens' toilets and change rooms, and that is not going to happen when people who look like men are using the womens' facilities.