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Holes in the trinity

The name is actually "I shall be" and it is given as an actual name, not a mere statement of existence but a Title itself.

And Jesus does not say "My name is I am" or "I am I am".

And what Jesus actually says is "I have been", as many prominent Trinitarian professors and grammarians have stated.

So Jesus is only claiming to have existed in one form or another since before Abraham. He is not at all identifying to be "The I am", but merely stating that he existed. Several times, the verb of the "Present Active indicative" is in fact used for the past tense, especially in keeping up with "Before Abraham was". They were picking up stones because he was essentially declaring to be A divine being, not THE.

Meanwhile, the beggar in John 9:9 says "I am" (Ego Eimi), no one was stoning him for it.

Actually the the begger says, I am the man or I am he depending on the translation. A direct answer to the question if this is the same man that was born blind.

Every translation has Jesus saying, 'I am.'
Look even at your version above. I have been and I shall be = I AM
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Actually the the begger says, I am the man or I am he depending on the translation. A direct answer to the question if this is the same man that was born blind.

Every translation has Jesus saying, 'I am.'
Look even at your version above. I have been and I shall be = I AM

Not so. Both Jesus and the former blind man said the same thing

John 9:9 Greek Text Analysis

John 8:58 Greek Text Analysis

ἐγὼ εἰμί
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus was before Abraham as an ideal not as a person.

He could not have said "I was" because that means something different than "I am".

It is not possible for Jesus who is The Truth to say I was until he hands over all of it to The Father.

1 Corinthians 15:24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having destroyed every ruler and authority and power.For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
This is what the trinity sounds like; There is one God. One God is three gods. See how there are two there?

1. There is one God

2. Three gods in one God

That makes two.

To get technical now your second god is actually three gods. That makes four.

I believe this is in error. It might sound like this but it is not this. There are not three gods in the Trinity; there is one God.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
God is fully present in essence/nature/substance in three 'persons' There is a difference between person and nature. The person is who they are. Nature is the characteristics, essence and will of what the person does. The three persons of the trinity are one because their will, their knowledge, and presence are the same. They are all fully God. This does not occur in His created beings because we are finite. That is also why the trinity is difficult to grasp, but evidence of the trinity is throught the gospel, the letters, and the belef of many christians from the time of the resurrection.

I believe these two statements contradict one another.

I would suppose but then God is always supernatural.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I believe there is an unbreakble bond between the three. If that is the meaning of the trinity, then I believe it. But the trinity says the three are the same but different. I do not believe they are the same. They are different.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I see the trinity as an excuse. There are three gods to serve. If one god is not being served as he should, the excuse is, I'm busy with the other god....(troll thought)
 
I see the trinity as an excuse. There are three gods to serve. If one god is not being served as he should, the excuse is, I'm busy with the other god....(troll thought)

If you serve one you serve all three. What faith believes the trinity is three separate Gods? I do not know of any.
 
Not so. Both Jesus and the former blind man said the same thing

John 9:9 Greek Text Analysis

John 8:58 Greek Text Analysis

ἐγὼ εἰμί

Ok. Thank you for the information on the original text. so Jesus said before Abraham was, I am he. or I am
And the man answered the question, Is this the man that was born blind?
I am he or I am.

Two completely different contexts and different meanings, not the same.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Ok. Thank you for the information on the original text. so Jesus said before Abraham was, I am he. or I am
And the man answered the question, Is this the man that was born blind?
I am he or I am.

Two completely different contexts and different meanings, not the same.

No, Jesus would not have said "I am he". He clearly said "I have been" in the context of "I am". The context only carries so much weight when you're arguing for a grammatical basis for Jesus declaring to be God. Besides, Jesus would have to say "My name is I am" for the full effect of what you want to say. And with that said, as Prominent Trinitarians have noted, this traditional rendering is Modalist, not classical Trinitarian.

In other words, the meaning is clearly not the same. The context is defined by the grammar. The only reason one might believe Jesus declared to be God is because of the reaction to pick up stones, but this presumes that there's only one reason they'd have considered it blasphemous. The more likely reason would be because he was declaring to be a Divine, spiritual being who had existed since before Abraham. Besides, most people who focus and zero in on this verse usually completely ignore the actual context of what Jesus is trying to say from the last few verses.

Trinitarian Translators may be adding the "he" in John 9:9 to avoid the implications that would burst their precious proof-text that they've come to know and love. And they rarely ever talk about it either. In fact, I'd like to see a single Trinitarian site or scholar that has commented on John 9:9.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
I believe there is an unbreakble bond between the three. If that is the meaning of the trinity, then I believe it. But the trinity says the three are the same but different. I do not believe they are the same. They are different.
I can more or less go along with this statement, savagewind.
 
No, Jesus would not have said "I am he". He clearly said "I have been" in the context of "I am". The context only carries so much weight when you're arguing for a grammatical basis for Jesus declaring to be God. Besides, Jesus would have to say "My name is I am" for the full effect of what you want to say. And with that said, as Prominent Trinitarians have noted, this traditional rendering is Modalist, not classical Trinitarian.

In other words, the meaning is clearly not the same. The context is defined by the grammar. The only reason one might believe Jesus declared to be God is because of the reaction to pick up stones, but this presumes that there's only one reason they'd have considered it blasphemous. The more likely reason would be because he was declaring to be a Divine, spiritual being who had existed since before Abraham. Besides, most people who focus and zero in on this verse usually completely ignore the actual context of what Jesus is trying to say from the last few verses.

Trinitarian Translators may be adding the "he" in John 9:9 to avoid the implications that would burst their precious proof-text that they've come to know and love. And they rarely ever talk about it either. In fact, I'd like to see a single Trinitarian site or scholar that has commented on John 9:9.

If Jesus was declaring to be A divine being than he was being blasphemous. Knowing his works and his nature I know the he would not be blasphemous. The liar, lunatic, or God argument applies here.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If Jesus was declaring to be A divine being than he was being blasphemous. Knowing his works and his nature I know the he would not be blasphemous. The liar, lunatic, or God argument applies here.

Jesus was a reflection of The Divine. The man Jesus is the body YHVH prepared for the message of God's salvation. He was a real man, but not like any other man.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you serve one you serve all three. What faith believes the trinity is three separate Gods? I do not know of any.

The Holy God Almighty Creator is the source of power. God does not dwell in time like the creation does. God does not need power to be sustained. That is ONE GOD. Jesus is a man dwelling in time and needs to be sustained by power like any other man. Two separate BEINGS. One out of time. One in time. TWO.
 
The Holy God Almighty Creator is the source of power. God does not dwell in time like the creation does. God does not need power to be sustained. That is ONE GOD. Jesus is a man dwelling in time and needs to be sustained by power like any other man. Two separate BEINGS. One out of time. One in time. TWO.

God lowered Himself to dwell in time for our salvation and to draw man to Himself. Who do you say that Jesus is?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God lowered Himself to dwell in time for our salvation and to draw man to Himself. Who do you say that Jesus is?

God lowered Himself to dwell in time for our salvation and to draw man to Himself TRUE imo

Who do you say Jesus is? The son of David. Son of Abraham. Son of God. Jesus is the way the truth the life. If no one had chosen to obey God's voice as Abraham did there would have been no Jesus. There would have still been a message. The stones would have declared it. Jesus is a miracle child. A human born of the virgin Mary.

Do you know the stone scripture or shall I look it up for you?
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Matthew 3:9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.

Luke 19:40 "I tell you," he replied, "if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out."
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Jesus was united with YHVH at his baptism. Before that he was not god. After that he was God's temple. The fullness of The Lord God dwells in him. IN him not is HIM.
 
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