Homosexual adoption - Abomination or not?

[Alceste]

Anyway, if evidence is boring, let's have a picture break. Instead of arguing, we can look at these pictures and either celebrate diversity or wring our hands with concern, depending on our proclivities.

I'd better stop. I'm making myself all weepy and overwhelmed looking at all those happy kids with their beautiful, loving parents.

 

[Quiddity]

Premature how?

Premature in that if any damage is done it takes time (especially from the outside) to see it. How many adults do you know of that were raised by a gay couple? Not many, I'd suspect. Sometimes people like Dawn Stefanowitz often do not speak out until their parents are dead because they understandably do not wish to hurt them. And the children being studied are definitely too young to fully grasp any ramifications of what is happening in their home.

 

[Kathryn]

ok, yes, I admit that marrying one's dog or cat was meant to be a joke but really the line must be drawn somewhere.

Anyway, I've started a new thread on this topic.

Oh, good. I'll waste no time reading it.

 

[Drolefille]

Premature in that if any damage is done it takes time (especially from the outside) to see it. How many adults do you know of that were raised by a gay couple? Not many, I'd suspect. Sometimes people like Dawn Stefanowitz often do not speak out until their parents are dead because they understandably do not wish to hurt them. And the children being studied are definitely too young to fully grasp any ramifications of what is happening in their home.

Not even the Proposition 8 people tried that argument. This issue has been tried in court and it does not hold a bit of water. If the lawyers and money of the anti-gay marriage group that made it a point to defend Prop 8 and are still doing so can't show harm to children raised by gay parents, why are you so sure there could be?

Also please watch the video posted, there are plenty of adults raised by gay parents. Not all gay parents will be perfect, not all straight parents are perfect, but statistically being raised by gay parents is no better or worse than being raised by straight parents.

Anecdotes aside, feelings aside, that is what the facts show.

 

[Quiddity]

Not even the Proposition 8 people tried that argument. This issue has been tried in court and it does not hold a bit of water. If the lawyers and money of the anti-gay marriage group that made it a point to defend Prop 8 and are still doing so can't show harm to children raised by gay parents, why are you so sure there could be?

Also please watch the video posted, there are plenty of adults raised by gay parents. Not all gay parents will be perfect, not all straight parents are perfect, but statistically being raised by gay parents is no better or worse than being raised by straight parents.

Anecdotes aside, feelings aside, that is what the facts show.

Actually, I'm not entirely sure. I was just asked why I do today [circa 2011]. I can't tell you what my conclusions will be 20 years from now. It may very well be that no damage will be done (and I hope no damage is done). But that does nothing to fact that I sincerely believe the best option is still a healthy traditional couple.

 

[Valjean]

I think we should go back and review Gjallahorn's algotithm in post #20.
Clearly some posters here "not discussing."

 

[Quiddity]

I think we should go back and review Gjallahorn's algotithm in post #20.
Clearly some posters here "not discussing."

Yes, because it's readily apparent that only Christians are incapable of change and stuck to their ways...

Far-fetched that such a thing could plague others.......just too bizarre.

 

[Alceste]

Actually, I'm not entirely sure. I was just asked why I do today [circa 2011]. I can't tell you what my conclusions will be 20 years from now. It may very well be that no damage will be done (and I hope no damage is done). But that does nothing to fact that I sincerely believe the best option is still a healthy traditional couple.

But do you think an UNHEALTHY heterosexual couple is likely to make better parents than a HEALTHY homosexual couple? That is what is at the heart of the issue: Those who oppose gay parenting are basically comparing the worst heterosexual parents to the best gay parents and saying the heterosexual parents are still better, no matter how bad they are.

 

[Drolefille]

Actually, I'm not entirely sure. I was just asked why I do today [circa 2011]. I can't tell you what my conclusions will be 20 years from now. It may very well be that no damage will be done (and I hope no damage is done). But that does nothing to fact that I sincerely believe the best option is still a healthy traditional couple.

And I can understand why you feel that way, as long as restrictions aren't place legally preventing same sex couples from adopting. My dad couldn't control that he got cancer, but luckily my parents were emotionally very healthy. I know people whose families are broken in six different ways who are good, functional, happy people today and some who had good parents who went to prison because they couldn't just deal with life.

We don't restrict people from parenting except in cases of abuse or neglect and we really should just hold gay parents to the same/equivalent standards as straight ones.

In reality I think most people who oppose it just don't want "gay" to be OK and so everything possible must be done to de-normalize gayness. But queer folk aren't going anywhere, and despite the fears others have, LGBT people came primarily from heterosexual parents, mostly traditional healthy couples, some a little broken, some more so - just like everyone did.

 

[Alceste]

Premature in that if any damage is done it takes time (especially from the outside) to see it. How many adults do you know of that were raised by a gay couple? Not many, I'd suspect. Sometimes people like Dawn Stefanowitz often do not speak out until their parents are dead because they understandably do not wish to hurt them. And the children being studied are definitely too young to fully grasp any ramifications of what is happening in their home.

BTW, my fiance's dad is gay. So are many of my closest friends. My neighbours are a lesbian couples with kids. How many gay parents or children of gay parents do you know, and how well do you know them?

 

[Quiddity]

But do you think an UNHEALTHY heterosexual couple is likely to make better parents than a HEALTHY homosexual couple? That is what is at the heart of the issue: Those who oppose gay parenting are basically comparing the worst heterosexual parents to the best gay parents and saying the heterosexual parents are still better, no matter how bad they are.

If you had read the APA article I quoted, you would've found that the same was done the other way around. We can both agree that apples need to be compared with apples.

 

[Alceste]

If you had read the APA article I quoted, you would've found that the same was done the other way around. We can both agree that apples need to be compared with apples.

I must have missed it. I will go back and check.

But the research I posted demonstrates pretty conclusively that, when comparing apples to apples, there is no difference between the children of same sex and opposite sex parents. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Drolefille]

I must have missed it. I will go back and check.

But the research I posted demonstrates pretty conclusively that, when comparing apples to apples, there is no difference between the children of same sex and opposite sex parents. Wouldn't you agree?

And so found the court in the Prop 8 case, as this was the proponents major claim...

 

[Quiddity]

And I can understand why you feel that way, as long as restrictions aren't place legally preventing same sex couples from adopting. My dad couldn't control that he got cancer, but luckily my parents were emotionally very healthy. I know people whose families are broken in six different ways who are good, functional, happy people today and some who had good parents who went to prison because they couldn't just deal with life.

We don't restrict people from parenting except in cases of abuse or neglect and we really should just hold gay parents to the same/equivalent standards as straight ones.

In reality I think most people who oppose it just don't want "gay" to be OK and so everything possible must be done to de-normalize gayness. But queer folk aren't going anywhere, and despite the fears others have, LGBT people came primarily from heterosexual parents, mostly traditional healthy couples, some a little broken, some more so - just like everyone did.

For the time being this will shutdown most all religious adoption agencies (catholic agencies probably being the most in numbers). It was never that they couldn't adopt, it was that they couldn't adopt in a catholic one. Ponder over that for a second.

 

[Quiddity]

I must have missed it. I will go back and check.

But the research I posted demonstrates pretty conclusively that, when comparing apples to apples, there is no difference between the children of same sex and opposite sex parents. Wouldn't you agree?

Yes I would.

 

[Quiddity]

BTW, my fiance's dad is gay. So are many of my closest friends. My neighbours are a lesbian couples with kids. How many gay parents or children of gay parents do you know, and how well do you know them?

Well, it's a bit personal, but he lived with us for a better part of my life. He was at my wedding and I love him to death.

 

[Drolefille]

For the time being this will shutdown most all religious adoption agencies (catholic agencies probably being the most in numbers). It was never that they couldn't adopt, it was that they couldn't adopt in a catholic one. Ponder over that for a second.

No, some states prohibit it actually. Some with laws, some just in practice. And I have no problems holding Catholic Charities to the same legal standards as any other adoption provider. If X is the government standard, it shouldn't be Y for a religious org getting government money but X for any other org. including other religious ones.

Catholic Charities isn't expected to only adopt Catholic children or to Catholic families. Their objection to this comes off more as insincere than not. And I say this as an ex-Catholic in a Catholic family - not because I'm bitter, but because I still am in the loop.

ETA: And many religions accept gay couples or at the least do not discriminate against them. I don't know how many of those run adoption agencies though.

 

[Alceste]

Victor, are you talking about this:

Lesbian & Gay Parenting: Theoretical & Conceptual Examinations Related to Lesbian & Gay Parenting
"As this summary will show, the results of existing research comparing lesbian and gay parents to heterosexual parents and children of lesbian and gay parents to children of heterosexual parents are quite clear: Common stereotypes are not supported by the data."

I'm not sure I can see how this helps your argument.

 

[Alceste]

Well, it's a bit personal, but he lived with us for a better part of my life. He was at my wedding and I love him to death.

But you are concerned that he might have a damaging effect on a child if allowed to be a father?

 

[Quiddity]

No, some states prohibit it actually. Some with laws, some just in practice. And I have no problems holding Catholic Charities to the same legal standards as any other adoption provider. If X is the government standard, it shouldn't be Y for a religious org getting government money but X for any other org. including other religious ones.

Catholic Charities isn't expected to only adopt Catholic children or to Catholic families. Their objection to this comes off more as insincere than not. And I say this as an ex-Catholic in a Catholic family - not because I'm bitter, but because I still am in the loop.

Catholic charities don't just adopt catholic children and hand them to catholic families; what are you talking about?

What I said is that gay couples (like in San Fran) do have other options. They don't HAVE TO go to a catholic one when there is one across the way that will allow it.

The issue just came down to taking tax dollars.