Homosexual adoption - Abomination or not?

[Alceste]

You seem to think that it only has to do with discrimination. Don't you think that many people oppose same-sex adoption because they are genuinly concerned for the health of the child?

Being concerned that minorities can't properly raise children is inherently discriminatory - it has no basis in fact.

 

[Viker]

You seem to think that it only has to do with discrimination. Don't you think that many people oppose same-sex adoption because they are genuinly concerned for the health of the child?

When we have or any one has run through all the reasons not to allow them to adopt, discrimination has been the strongest concluding factor for the proposition.

If I were to propose not letting any one, including straight couples, adopt on the grounds that one or both have no high school diploma (or possibly even a college degree), out of concern for a child's future well being, what would that be called?

( I'm not proposing this BTW and diploma-less adoption is not my point)

 

[839311]

Being concerned that minorities can't properly raise children is inherently discriminatory

Thats not what I asked you. I have no doubt that lgbt couples can be good parents. Im concerned about whether the children growing up in such setups are going to develop normally and be healthy.

it has no basis in fact.

Regarding the health of kids, from what I read, while most of it was positive, there were a lot of experts who thought that there were too few studies done, some done or interpretted the wrong way, some with hidden agendas (whether pro or against), and most of them were focused on lesbian parents.

The coming decades will provide many more studies of a higher quality and that will provide much more information and insight into how children with lgbt parents develop.

I also think that as a society becomes more and more accepting of the lgbt community, that this will make it easier and easier for kids too, whether they are gay themselves or whether they have gay parents. Personally, I expect the situation will get better and better.

Some countries are definetly not ready for same-sex marriage, let alone same-sex adoption. And of the remainder, some are more ready than others.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Thats not what I asked you. I have no doubt that lgbt couples can be good parents. Im concerned about whether the children growing up in such setups are going to develop normally and be healthy.

And I am concerned about whether children growing up in setups such as the families of Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist), Don Black (of Stormfront) and Thom Robb (KKK) are going to develop normally and be healthy.

 

[839311]

When we have or any one has run through all the reasons not to allow them to adopt, discrimination has been the strongest concluding factor for the proposition.

Is that true? I wouldn't be surpirsed, though. But its not the only reason. In the end, whether or not children develop normally and are healthy has nothing to do with whether some people would oppose same-sex adoption for discriminatory reasons or recklessly support it because of gay pride. The kids either do develop normally and are healthy, or they don't.

 

[839311]

And I am concerned about whether children growing up in setups such as the families of Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist), Don Black (of Stormfront) and Thom Robb (KKK) are going to develop normally and be healthy.

lol likewise. Our society has a lot of problems.

 

[Quiddity]

Okay.

Then why?

Purely for religious/moral reasons.

The Vatican put it his way:

As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood........their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.

 

[tumbleweed41]

And I am concerned about whether children growing up in setups such as the families of Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist), Don Black (of Stormfront) and Thom Robb (KKK) are going to develop normally and be healthy.

lol likewise. Our society has a lot of problems.

Children face many challenges growing up, no matter the sexual orientation of their parents.
The only concern I have for the children of same sex couples is the same concern many have for the children of mixed race couples.

The discriminatory attitudes of the ignorant.

 

[Viker]

Is that true? I wouldn't be surpirsed, though. But its not the only reason. In the end, whether or not children develop normally and are healthy has nothing to do with whether some people would oppose same-sex adoption for discriminatory reasons or recklessly support it because of gay pride. The kids either do develop normally and are healthy, or they don't.

Discrimination is a result not actually a reason. Some people, however, may be opposed to it personally and not support any thing resembling banning this kind of adoption. They're still being personally discriminatory just in a socially harmless way ( I suppose ).

So far all the solid indicators are that adopted kids of gays are fine and normal.

I "support" it by default, as I can't see any reason to hold it against them in an adoption process. Of course, my opinions don't always amount to much.

 

[Viker]

As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood........[/COLOR]their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.

Now, do they have back up to that claim of "experience has shown"?

The rest seems to be standard bias.

 

[Alceste]

Purely for religious/moral reasons.

The Vatican put it his way:

As experience has shown, the absence of sexual complementarity in these unions creates obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons. They would be deprived of the experience of either fatherhood or motherhood........their condition of dependency would be used to place them in an environment that is not conducive to their full human development. This is gravely immoral and in open contradiction to the principle, recognized also in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, that the best interests of the child, as the weaker and more vulnerable party, are to be the paramount consideration in every case.

Whose experience is he talking about? It couldn't possibly be the experience of people who actually research this subject, because everything that follows ''As experience has shown'' in this statement is factually incorrect.

 

[Quiddity]

Whose experience is he talking about? It couldn't possibly be the experience of people who actually research this subject, because everything that follows ''As experience has shown'' in this statement is factually incorrect.

"Who" is human experience as a whole. It's not intended to address any "studies" as studies say nothing about experience, only results.

 

[Quiddity]

Now, do they have back up to that claim of "experience has shown"?

The rest seems to be standard bias.

Pff....what isn't bias?

Oh, just thousands of years of observation that you'll probably just excuse as bias and backwards anyways.

So, there you have it.

 

[Alceste]

Thats not what I asked you. I have no doubt that lgbt couples can be good parents. Im concerned about whether the children growing up in such setups are going to develop normally and be healthy.

And the answer is yes, they develop normally. I showed you a meta-analysis.

Regarding the health of kids, from what I read, while most of it was positive, there were a lot of experts who thought that there were too few studies done, some done or interpretted the wrong way, some with hidden agendas (whether pro or against), and most of them were focused on lesbian parents.

The coming decades will provide many more studies of a higher quality and that will provide much more information and insight into how children with lgbt parents develop.

I also think that as a society becomes more and more accepting of the lgbt community, that this will make it easier and easier for kids too, whether they are gay themselves or whether they have gay parents. Personally, I expect the situation will get better and better.

Some countries are definetly not ready for same-sex marriage, let alone same-sex adoption. And of the remainder, some are more ready than others.

Why do you assume the studies are lacking in quality? Too often this is the first place of refuge of people who have just discovered the unanimous finding of research on a subject disagrees with their pre-existing assumptions.

Let's take a study and look at it carefully ourselves, shall we? We can determine whether the research methods are sound, whether the sample group was large enough, whether any ''agenda'' beyond learning the truth is driving the conclusions of the researchers involved. Would you be interested in such an exercise?

 

[Alceste]

"Who" is human experience as a whole. It's not intended to address any "studies" as studies say nothing about experience, only results.

But surely ''human experience'' as a whole can only be accurately summed up by studying the subject and examining the results.

Unless you're not really talking about ''experience'', but something else. ''Assumptions'' perhaps? Like ''As our unexamined a priori assumptions show us, bla bla bla''?

 

[Quiddity]

But surely ''human experience'' as a whole can only be accurately summed up by studying the subject and examining the results.

Unless you're not really talking about ''experience'', but something else. ''Assumptions'' perhaps? Like ''As our unexamined a priori assumptions show us, bla bla bla''?

Ha! Good one.

As I said before, the studies are premature. That isn't ignoring them, it's just calling it what it is.

 

[839311]

And the answer is yes, they develop normally. I showed you a meta-analysis.

One meta-analysis isn't enough. There are both discriminatory meta-analyses that have been compiled as well as ones that ignore the negatives.

Why do you assume the studies are lacking in quality?

I don't assume this. I said from what I read there are a lot of experts who believe this. Im not an expert in this field, and Im guessing neither are you?

Too often this is the first place of refuge of people who have just discovered the unanimous finding of research on a subject disagrees with their pre-existing assumptions.?

Keep in mind that I would be all for it if the research showed that the kids develop normally and are healthy.

Let's take a study and look at it carefully ourselves, shall we? We can determine whether the research methods are sound, whether the sample group was large enough, whether any ''agenda'' beyond learning the truth is driving the conclusions of the researchers involved. Would you be interested in such an exercise?

Depends. How much effort is going to be involved? It sounds like a little too much effort is required for an issue which Im not personally too interested in.

Also, from your posts I suspect that you are probably not someone I would like to do this exercise with. Your opinion doesn't seem balanced at all. But I do appreciate the fire that you have for equal rights, and I don't doubt that your intentions are good.

 

[Alceste]

Ha! Good one.

As I said before, the studies are premature. That isn't ignoring them, it's just calling it what it is.

Premature how? If nearly ALL of the studies agree with one another that there is no harm at all in homosexuals raising children, what difference does it make whether there are a thousand such studies or ten thousand such studies, or twenty? If there were any real harm involved, surely the majority of studies would have found that this is the case. Instead, in the first few pages of Google Scholar, here is what we find:

http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/fam/20/3/526/

This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. different-sex parents), family and relationship variables, substance use, delinquency, and victimization of adolescents. Participants included 44 adolescents living with female same-sex couples and 44 adolescents living with different-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. Analyses indicated that adolescents were functioning well and that their adjustment was not associated with family type.

Psychosocial Adjustment, School Outcomes, and Romantic Relationships of Adolescents With Same-Sex Parents - Wainright - 2004 - Child Development - Wiley Online Library

This study examined associations among family type (same-sex vs. opposite-sex parents); family and relationship variables; and the psychosocial adjustment, school outcomes, and romantic attractions and behaviors of adolescents. Participants included 44 12- to 18-year-old adolescents parented by same-sex couples and 44 same-aged adolescents parented by opposite-sex couples, matched on demographic characteristics and drawn from a national sample. Normative analyses indicated that, on measures of psychosocial adjustment and school outcomes, adolescents were functioning well, and their adjustment was not generally associated with family type. Assessments of romantic relationships and sexual behavior were not associated with family type.

Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents

Does parental sexual orientation affect child development, and if so, how? Studies using convenience samples, studies using samples drawn from known populations, and studies based on samples that are representative of larger populations all converge on similar conclusions. More than two decades of research has failed to reveal important differences in the adjustment or development of children or adolescents reared by same-sex couples compared to those reared by other-sex couples. Results of the research suggest that qualities of family relationships are more tightly linked with child outcomes than is parental sexual orientation.

Children of Lesbian and Gay Parents - Patterson - 2008 - Child Development - Wiley Online Library

This paper reviews research evidence regarding the personal and social development of children with gay and lesbian parents...These studies include assessment of possible differences between children with gay or lesbian versus heterosexual parents as well as research on sources of diversity among children of gay and lesbian parents... there is no evidence that the development of children with lesbian or gay parents is compromised in any significant respect relative to that among children of heterosexual parents in otherwise comparable circumstances.


So once again, WHOSE experience is the Pope talking about? All I can find is study after study after study showing that his fears are completely unfounded.

 

[Viker]

Pff....what isn't bias?

Oh, just thousands of years of observation that you'll probably just excuse as bias and backwards anyways.

So, there you have it.

Yeah. There is a lot of that bias piled all around.

I wouldn't dismiss thousands of years of observation. I would dismiss thousands of years or iron set tradition and thousands of years of thousands of blind traditionalists missing a point.

I have what?

 

[Alceste]

One meta-analysis isn't enough. There are both discriminatory meta-analyses that have been compiled as well as ones that ignore the negatives.

I don't assume this. I said from what I read there are a lot of experts who believe this. Im not an expert in this field, and Im guessing neither are you?

No, neither of us are experts in the field of psychology, but it is a simple task for us to discover what the consensus of the experts is, and to examine the research upon which they base their conclusions. I have done this, so I know my opinion is on very solid factual ground and is (therefore) supported by a near-unanimous majority of experts in the field. Can you say the same for people with lingering 'concerns' about same sex parents?

Keep in mind that I would be all for it if the research showed that the kids develop normally and are healthy.

Then you're in luck, because that is indeed what all of the published research I have been able to find on Google Scholar shows.

So let's celebrate the end of any concerns about the psychological effects of gay parenting on children!

:ymca:

Depends. How much effort is going to be involved? It sounds like a little too much effort is required for an issue which Im not personally too interested in.

Also, from your posts I suspect that you are probably not someone I would like to do this exercise with. Your opinion doesn't seem balanced at all. But I do appreciate the fire that you have for equal rights, and I don't doubt that your intentions are good.

I don't believe in balance. I believe in building my opinions on a solid factual foundation. If one factual claim is true (like ''gay parenting is not harmful to children'') and another false (like ''gay parenting is harmful to children''), the correct opinion is aligned with the facts, not somewhere in the middle.