homosexual

[Shadow Wolf]

Im not saying your a bad person because of your sexual orientation...Im not even stating that homosexuality is wrong..I am openly discussing what I personally believe..

As for the ask gays lesbians advice..why should I ask anyone else when I can ask myself? ( I am BI, wouldnt mind a hot tranny or even a feminine guy provided I have enough drinks in me..) I have always had homosexual urges and feelings..Nobody can explain it better to me than what I can perceive for myself..The reason I also support the nurture argument as opposed to the nature one is that..IMO based on my personal experience I would not have had these urges if I wasn't molested by a pedo..

Please dont get me wrong Im not condemning anyone to Hell..I actually love hanging out with homosexuals..And going to the gay club here in Canberra...its called Cube..boy do the homosexuals know their music!

That being said on a personal level..I see nothing good I can take from it...so I personally believe it is wrong(just acting on the feelings and actually having intercourse not having those feelings or thoughts, If I were to believe that I would be a hypocrite)...I dont want to lie and state something that I dont believe, I want to be as honest and open about my beliefs as possible..

In science, personal accounts really don't account for much. They are easily skewed, memories often changed, and things are not accounted for correctly.
However there is a large amount of data that shows that pedophilia, or being molested as a kid, will not increase your chances of being homosexual. You would have had your urges even had your not been molested. And what this research will show is there is a varying degree of nature and nurture, with it mostly being nature and a slight amount of nurture.
And just because something is not for you does not make it wrong. Living up to the standards and expectations of others is nothing I can take any good from, but if someone else is that way there is nothing wrong with it.

 

[McBell]

You prove my point...So you dont think all humans are equal? Were you raised by Hitler?

What the hell does you being wrong about what I think and believe have to do with all humans being equal?

I have never stated evolution is "wrong"

What a neat coincidence...
I never claimed you said evolution was wrong...

just that I disagree with it on a personal level..and not all evolution/change...Human evolution..I dont hold a young earth creationist view...I dont even believe Humans were put on earth when this earth was created..

And?

All your arguments..or jibes or smart comments (not really) are directed at thiests..Just because you think evolution answers all your questions..

Wrong.
Of course, if you would have taken the time to look at all my posts you would see that you are just plain flat out wrong.

But since you are obviously not interested in truth or facts...

Your making assumptions and judging me and my character based on my creationist belief..

Wrong.
I called you out on your blatant ignorance of evolution.

I can read between the lines..

Any one can read well when they are the one putting the writing there...

You really havent..you will have tried to understand my position..when you put your evolutionary baggage on one side..and read the book im qouting from...if its too unbelievable read it as a work of fiction/fantasy..

I am not the one misrepresenting evolution.
that would be you.

And to no ones surprise, you defeat your strawmen rather well.

Again trying to be smart..your logic is flawed...how will you deduce what actually happend..you will listen to what he said and she said and based on the facts will reach a conclusion.."what actually happend" isnt going to come relate the story to you? What you should have said was..there is only One side to every story..the truth..what actually happend..how can the same story play out in more than one way in reality?..

Merely pointing out the facts of the matter.
Your refusal to see anything other than what you want and then declaring what you want to be some god given truth is the problem here.

I dont think Im on a higher moral ground..I just refuse to disrespect people based on what they believe..

No, you disrespect people by assigning them their beliefs so you can preach, judge and condem based on your strawmen.

Just like you do with evolution.

I dont think I am better than anyone..that includes athiests..I actually hold the belief that athiests are smarter than the average population..you refuse to blindly believe..I respect you for that..but unless you truly search for something..how do you expect to find it? And maybe someday you will understand what I mean when I say...faith has always been about believing in something that no one can or will prove...or disprove for that matter..

Faith is believing in something your intellect would normally dismiss.
other wise, there is no need for faith.

This does not make faith a bad thing.
It does, however, mean that faith can be used to justify anything ever thought up by any one.
And that can be a bad thing.

Im not playing the martyr..man you have weird perceptions of what threats are and what playing a martyr is..you will never understand where I am coming from..instead you have probably met a few Muslims or Believers (of any faith)who have shaped your opinions, Every person is the same (what we are made of) yet we are unique..

You are correct.
I have met some Muslims who have helped shape my opinion that Muslims, just like every other group and label are comprised of all manner of people.
Some of which. like yourself, have only a few categories they force everyone into, all the way to the exact opposite of those who allow people to put themselves in their categories.

This is the type of assumption from you that shows your attempted martyrdom.
By it self it is no big deal.
But added with the other bits...

You dont like my disagreement with evolution..so you label everything I say as ignorant..regardless

Wrong again.
This is again nothing more than you forcing me into your box.

My calling out your ignorance of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with your beliefs.
It has to do with your ignorance of evolution.

YOU are the one trying real hard to apply the transference, not me.

when have any of my posts started with "wrong" "wrong" "wrong", I always make sure I include the words..I believe..IMO..my understanding..

But you do not understand.
Not one bit.
You make claims about me and I flat out told you those claims were wrong.
Instead of trying to find out how or why they were wrong, you merely used it to reinforce your assumptions whilst telling me I have not made any attempt to understand you.

So why should I try to understand you when you have made it perfectly clear that you have no intentions to follow your own advise?

I dont want anyone to demonstrate anything..

actually you do.
You want me to take the time to understand your position.
But at the exact same time, you absolutely refuse to understand mine.
In fact, you are doing to me the very thing you are whining so adamently about me doing to you.

So yes, you want me to demonstrate your standards before you demonstrate your standards.

I have listened to your argument of evolution..

Neat trick.
Cause I have not presented an argument for or against evolution in this thread.

The only thing I have said about evolution in this thread is that you have revealed an ignorance of it.

i refuse to believe that I have no purpose other than promoting the capitalist system..I do ...it is reproduction (survival of the fittest), and passing down a torch of good values and morals to my kin.(My faith in a God and Judgement makes me question my actions/sins) It may not make sense to you but I believe it makes me a better person..than if I had adopted your outlook of life..

And none of that excuses your misrepresentation of evolution.

Why are you taking it as a sermon..how is expressing my opinion the same as preaching and claiming authority over what the truth is...I havent done any of that...I am open about what I believe..to those who want to listen..

It is preaching because you are not listening to what others actually say.
I have said absolutely nothing about your beliefs being right or wrong, yet you have repeatedly gone on and on about how you think I think your beliefs are wrong.

So much for you actually practicing what you preach.

 

[Monotheist 101]

In science, personal accounts really don't account for much. They are easily skewed, memories often changed, and things are not accounted for correctly.
However there is a large amount of data that shows that pedophilia, or being molested as a kid, will not increase your chances of being homosexual. You would have had your urges even had your not been molested. And what this research will show is there is a varying degree of nature and nurture, with it mostly being nature and a slight amount of nurture.
And just because something is not for you does not make it wrong. Living up to the standards and expectations of others is nothing I can take any good from, but if someone else is that way there is nothing wrong with it.

I didnt say it was wrong for you..I said it is wrong for me .. I have faith in the Quran..and the Quran is pointing at it being unfavorable..you dont have to believe me or the Quran..The first thing I have learned from the Quran is that I have no right to judge any human being..(that is only for God to do)..when I read the Quran I dont hang onto the part about homosexuals...I place more importance in its other lessons..

But at the same time I believe, where there is a smoke, there is usually a fire..I didnt look into the occult with anti-homo glasses on...I tried to understand it, and this is part of the ritual..

The underlying point of my post is, you probably dont believe in a God, the Quran or the Occult...and you dont have to...its totally up to you...I dont look down at you for being a disbeliever and a homosexual..I have no right to.. This is my personal understanding and perception of the world around me..it is unique to me..like your life is unique to you.

I didn't intend to pass judgement on you or anyone..

Peace and God Bless

 

[Monotheist 101]

What the hell does you being wrong about what I think and believe have to do with all humans being equal?


What a neat coincidence...
I never claimed you said evolution was wrong...


And?


Wrong.
Of course, if you would have taken the time to look at all my posts you would see that you are just plain flat out wrong.

But since you are obviously not interested in truth or facts...


Wrong.
I called you out on your blatant ignorance of evolution.



Any one can read well when they are the one putting the writing there...


I am not the one misrepresenting evolution.
that would be you.

And to no ones surprise, you defeat your strawmen rather well.


Merely pointing out the facts of the matter.
Your refusal to see anything other than what you want and then declaring what you want to be some god given truth is the problem here.


No, you disrespect people by assigning them their beliefs so you can preach, judge and condem based on your strawmen.

Just like you do with evolution.


Faith is believing in something your intellect would normally dismiss.
other wise, there is no need for faith.

This does not make faith a bad thing.
It does, however, mean that faith can be used to justify anything ever thought up by any one.
And that can be a bad thing.


You are correct.
I have met some Muslims who have helped shape my opinion that Muslims, just like every other group and label are comprised of all manner of people.
Some of which. like yourself, have only a few categories they force everyone into, all the way to the exact opposite of those who allow people to put themselves in their categories.

This is the type of assumption from you that shows your attempted martyrdom.
By it self it is no big deal.
But added with the other bits...


Wrong again.
This is again nothing more than you forcing me into your box.

My calling out your ignorance of evolution has absolutely nothing to do with your beliefs.
It has to do with your ignorance of evolution.

YOU are the one trying real hard to apply the transference, not me.


But you do not understand.
Not one bit.
You make claims about me and I flat out told you those claims were wrong.
Instead of trying to find out how or why they were wrong, you merely used it to reinforce your assumptions whilst telling me I have not made any attempt to understand you.

So why should I try to understand you when you have made it perfectly clear that you have no intentions to follow your own advise?


actually you do.
You want me to take the time to understand your position.
But at the exact same time, you absolutely refuse to understand mine.
In fact, you are doing to me the very thing you are whining so adamently about me doing to you.

So yes, you want me to demonstrate your standards before you demonstrate your standards.


Neat trick.
Cause I have not presented an argument for or against evolution in this thread.

The only thing I have said about evolution in this thread is that you have revealed an ignorance of it.


And none of that excuses your misrepresentation of evolution.


It is preaching because you are not listening to what others actually say.
I have said absolutely nothing about your beliefs being right or wrong, yet you have repeatedly gone on and on about how you think I think your beliefs are wrong.

So much for you actually practicing what you preach.

Your not saying much tho..all your posts have been about pointing out how im ignorant..

By your theory of evolution..I mean the generally accepted theory on which you base your claim.

And your saying I dont practice what I preach..I dont hang around the forum, dropping one liners or questioning details about a persons faith..and using smileys like kids...

I am here to educate myself on as many belief systems as possible..the reason I am not interested in yours is..Ive got Athiests all around me...no ones saying anything new to me..its the same simple faith of denial..theres so many of your type around me your opinion has lost its value..I dont think I could learn anything useful regarding religion from you..If I wanted to learn about evolution or science, I would have joined a science forum...I want to learn and talk about religions..thus religiousforums...you bring nothing new to the table..no insight of anything(relevant to why Im here) just denial.

I think we are wasting time..addressing eachother ..have a good day

Peace

P.S I do want to thank you for keeping me busy at work ...not much of a facebook fan..all the best dude..we dont have to agree with eachother..

 

[McBell]

I am here to educate myself on as many belief systems as possible..

Then start actually doing so and stop trying to dictate to me what I think and believe.

the reason I am not interested in yours is..Ive got Athiests all around me...

Just as all theists are not the same, not all atheists are the same.

I have not said a damn thing about your beliefs.
Not a single thing.

no ones saying anything new to me..its the same simple faith of denial..

Denial of what, exactly?

theres so many of your type around me your opinion has lost its value..

Another neat trick on your part, seeing as I have not given my opinion on your beliefs...

I dont think I could learn anything useful regarding religion from you..

That is because you are to busy dictating to me what I think and believe instead of learning what it is I actually think and believe.

You have put so many words I have not even implied, let alone actually said, in my mouth that you have lost track of what it is you want me to think and believe.

If I wanted to learn about evolution or science, I would have joined a science forum...

Fair enough, as long as you understand that any time you misrepresent either you may be called out on it.

I want to learn and talk about religions..thus religiousforums...you bring nothing new to the table..no insight of anything(relevant to why Im here) just denial.

Again with your accusation of denial.
Denial of what?

I think we are wasting time..addressing eachother ..have a good day

Perhaps if you were to stop making all the false accusations about me...

 

[Monotheist 101]

Again with your accusation of denial.
Denial of what?

What do you think Sherlock?

Denial of God..or the need for religion..

Thing is mate..I didnt reply to any of your posts with pictures of ignorance meters and what not...I wasnt addressing you..you started it..If it was upto me..I would ignore you if I did stumble across any of your posts..based on our discussion a few weeks ago..and the fact that insect crawling on the corner of your posts is annoying as...anyways mate apologies for accusing or disrespecting you..I see no use for hatred..it brings me down..

Peace

 

[McBell]

Denial of God..or the need for religion..

You take far to much liberty with your assumptions.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Fair enough, as long as you understand that any time you misrepresent either you may be called out on it.

When did I mention evolution on this thread before you addressed me with a picture of whatever you think is humorous..qouting a few lines of mine out of context..what did you base that on? our discussion on the other thread? Why are you still losing sleep over that?

I just read a couple of your posts on another thread addressed at theists, you use the exact same lines you address me with "empty threats" "ignorance"..replying to people who arent even talking to you..I think it is safe to deduce, you think you are a smart ***.. my earlier observations about your character are true...how do I block you?

 

[McBell]

When did I mention evolution on this thread before you addressed me with a picture of whatever you think is humorous..qouting a few lines of mine out of context..what did you base that on? our discussion on the other thread? Why are you still losing sleep over that?

I addressed what you said, nothing more, nothing less.
So far as I can tell, you are having a hard time keeping up your assumptions.

I just read a couple of your posts on another thread addressed at theists, you use the exact same lines you address me with "empty threats" "ignorance"..replying to people who arent even talking to you..I think it is safe to deduce, you think you are a smart ***.. my earlier observations about your character are true...how do I block you?

I can show you loads of examples where I have said the same things to others as I have said to you when they are doing the same thing as you.

btw
when are you going to start practicing what you preach?

 

[Avicious]

When did I mention evolution on this thread before you addressed me with a picture of whatever you think is humorous.. quoting a few lines of mine out of context..what did you base that on? our discussion on the other thread? Why are you still losing sleep over that?

I just read a couple of your posts on another thread addressed at theists, you use the exact same lines you address me with "empty threats" "ignorance"..replying to people who arent even talking to you..I think it is safe to deduce, you think you are a smart ***.. my earlier observations about your character are true...how do I block you?

The point of a forum is to reply to things not intended for you. To share your opinion. You make an assumption that he's a smart *** for using the same lines he uses on you on others, but last I heard if you use something over again that makes sense in the new conversation, that's just human nature.

And how can you condemn it to being a smart *** when it still works. And sorry to say, but what I've found in my lurking of one full year here is that most of the theists do have empty threats and are full of ignorance. On the same coin, many of the theists here are smart, open-minded, and don't make threats.

Also, what's the matter with a little humor, the meter made me giggle. Take it light heartily if you're going to take it any sort of way, and if you can't do that, then I think this may not be the place for you.

If you intend to block this sir or lady, then you're going to be missing out on a slew of well-thought-out posts and witty retorts. But alas, it's up to you.

Also, you're kind of a hypocrite for complaining over his being a smart ***.

What do you think Sherlock?

 

[allright]

Allright, do you know what Jesus means?


Allright, do you know what Jesus means?
Allright, can you harmonize the meaning of all these verses?
Allright, have you understood these things?
How about that one?

What about that one?

Have you pondered this verse much?

I'm trying to tell you, Allright, in order to save you. You are persecuting children and beating your 'Fellow servants'. It is you whose war is with Jesus.

What are you talking about? Try again when your sober

 

[allright]

You're not answering my question. I'm asking how you know it's a sin. I'm not asking you to tell me that homosexuality is a sin. I'm asking where Jesus condemned homosexuality.

If he never condemned it, why do you think he opposed it? What did he say or do which made you reach that conclusion?



How do you know? What if Jesus did indeed speak of everything which he considered sinful?

In other words, aren't you putting words into Jesus' mouth? If he had wanted us to view homosexuality or abortion as sinful, wouldn't he have told us that it is sinful?

To me, it seems that you are trying to make Jesus dislike the things which you personally dislike.





Why should I believe that you are the one person in the world who can explain Jesus' truth to me?

Other Christians tell me that Jesus approved of homosexuality.

Jesus never said sex with animals is sin so according to you he approved of it?

Anyone who calls himself a Christian and says God approves any kind of sex outside marriage is a liar and a false Christian

You don't want Jesus's truth, you just want to justify sin in your life so you will.

Try reconciling this make believe Jesus your pushing with the fact that the real Jesus said few people would be saved and most would end up in hell

 

[Brickjectivity]

What are you talking about? Try again when your sober

I wasn't joking, but you weren't listening. Its ok. We're good. Moving on.

 

[allright]

I wasn't joking, but you weren't listening. Its ok. We're good. Moving on.

 

[Avoice]

A few Bible verses to consider:

1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind,for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be anyother thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: forG1063 even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men G730 with men G730 working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Lev 18:22 Thou shalt notH3808 lieH7901 with mankind,H2145 as with womankind: it is abomination.
Lev 18:23 Neither shalt thou lie H5414 H7903 with any beast H929 to defileH2930 thyself therewith: neither shall any woman H802 stand before a beast H929 to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Strong's definitions available on request.

 

[BBTimeless]

I am always a bit hesitant when someone tries to use the Bible to solidify and support their argument against the idea of homosexuality. The Bible presents many ideas, thoughts, and laws that the Christian community tends to ignore or marginalize. Curiously, however, when it comes to something like homosexuality the hypocrisy goes to the wayside in lieu of their own biased perspective.

 

[Brickjectivity]

A few Bible verses to consider:

You are late to the party (page 40). Yes, these verses require consideration. We've been considering them. Let me provide some decent context for them. You're honest, but you don't have enough familiarity with your Old Testament and its tripping you up.

• Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Do you have any idea where Paul is coming from with the above statement? He is talking about Israel, the nation through which the LORD would make a name, thus revealing himself. This is the 'Creation' which revealed God. Christianity is a second creation, a new creation as explained in the gospel of John. This passage in Romans, (1:20 to the end) is describing the Hellenized Jews. These people were dragged away from Israel and made to live in a Greek way. They were forced to do 'What ought not to be done' in the way that Nebuchadnezzar tried to make Daniel eat unclean meats similar to pepperoni. Circumcised Jews ought not to do it, in other words. This falls under the discussion about circumcision. Should gentiles be circumcised or not? Paul would say they should not. Homosexuality is not really the heart of the matter. Paul is not concerned with homosexuality in Christians any more than he is concerned about them eating clams. He is talking about idolatry. His point was "Claiming to be wise they became fools and in doing so exchanged the truth of God for a lie." That is his point. It is the point of the Jewish captivity and of many books about it. Its Christianity's major point. Do not be judgemental (of what God reveals to your neighbor). The spirit goes about invisibly like the wind, and you have no control of it. In other words, not everyone needs to be Jewish; and everyone doesn't have to always think the same things about God. Different people, different minds, different opinions and tastes, but there's still one God.

I am always a bit hesitant when someone tries to use the Bible to solidify and support their argument against the idea of homosexuality. The Bible presents many ideas, thoughts, and laws that the Christian community tends to ignore or marginalize. Curiously, however, when it comes to something like homosexuality the hypocrisy goes to the wayside in lieu of their own biased perspective.

BBTimeless, this comes ultimately from past involvement with slavery. The Bible was used to justify slavery when it is against slavery. That twisting is what caused most of the misunderstandings, I think.

 

[Avoice]

You are late to the party (page 40). Yes, these verses require consideration. We've been considering them.

Yes I'm late to the Party. I looked at the thread and did not see them posted.

Let me provide some decent context for them. You're honest, but you don't have enough familiarity with your Old Testament and its tripping you up.

I've read the Hebrew Scriptures as much if not more than the Greek ones. Hebrew is the foundation and the source of what Jesus and his Apostles taught.



•

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse."

Do you have any idea where Paul is coming from with the above statement?

A spiritual place. Yet, I fail to see what it has to do with homosexuality practiced by either gender.

He is talking about Israel, the nation through which the LORD would make a name, thus revealing himself.

He is speaking of the New Israel. The Jews who first accepted Jesus and from them the teachings finally went out to the Gentiles.

This is the 'Creation' which revealed God. Christianity is a second creation, a new creation as explained in the gospel of John.

Av I don't see that in a word search. The New creation happens in Revelation. "All things New" is the term it uses.

This passage in Romans, (1:20 to the end) is describing the Hellenized Jews.

It seems to me he is speaking of all creation; earth, Adam and all his descendents and Christ Jesus.

These people were dragged away from Israel and made to live in a Greek way. They were forced to do 'What ought not to be done' in the way that Nebuchadnezzar tried to make Daniel eat unclean meats similar to pepperoni. Circumcised Jews ought not to do it, in other words. This falls under the discussion about circumcision. Should gentiles be circumcised or not? Paul would say they should not.

OK

Homosexuality is not really the heart of the matter. Paul is not concerned with homosexuality in Christians any more than he is concerned about them eating clams.

Av I disagree. Explain to me with scripture in context how he's not concerned with what amounts to both Idolatry of their fellow man and adultery.

He is talking about idolatry.

I believe he speaks of that on its own.

His point was "Claiming to be wise they became fools and in doing so exchanged the truth of God for a lie." That is his point.

This is true and he says it of all the sins he lists including man laying with man

It is the point of the Jewish captivity and of many books about it.

Jewish captivity tended to be related to idolatry and the sins that accompanied that sin.

Its Christianity's major point.

I thought "love your neighbor as you {love yourself} was Christianity's point.

Do not be judgemental (of what God reveals to your neighbor). The spirit goes about invisibly like the wind, and you have no control of it. In other words, not everyone needs to be Jewish; and everyone doesn't have to always think the same things about God. Different people, different minds, different opinions and tastes, but there's still one God.

One thing I've learned about revelations, they do not contradict God's laws or the main points of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. The only place Jesus addressed "Differently" than the LORD of the Hebrew scriptures was in punishing people we see as Wicked. Teaching is one thing but, none of us is

 

[Brickjectivity]

...
A spiritual place. Yet, I fail to see what it has to do with homosexuality practiced by either gender.
He is speaking of the New Israel. The Jews who first accepted Jesus and from them the teachings finally went out to the Gentiles.
Av I don't see that in a word search. The New creation happens in Revelation. "All things New" is the term it uses.
It seems to me he is speaking of all creation; earth, Adam and all his descendents and Christ Jesus.
OK
Av I disagree. Explain to me with scripture in context how he's not concerned with what amounts to both Idolatry of their fellow man and adultery.
I believe he speaks of that on its own.
This is true and he says it of all the sins he lists including man laying with man
Jewish captivity tended to be related to idolatry and the sins that accompanied that sin.
I thought "love your neighbor as you {love yourself} was Christianity's point.
One thing I've learned about revelations, they do not contradict God's laws or the main points of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. The only place Jesus addressed "Differently" than the LORD of the Hebrew scriptures was in punishing people we see as Wicked. Teaching is one thing but, none of us is

Avoice, thanks for your reply.

• A spiritual place. Yet, I fail to see what it has to do with homosexuality practiced by either gender.
  Our failure to communicate is mutual. I'm notoriously bad and am sorry for being overdramatic in the last post.
  ​

• He is speaking of the New Israel. The Jews who first accepted Jesus and from them the teachings finally went out to the Gentiles.
  ​
  
  
  
  Yes, but he uses the example of Israel when it was invaded and taken away captive. His warning to Christians is not to think themselves wise.
  
  ​
• Av I don't see that in a word search. The New creation happens in Revelation. "All things New" is the term it uses.
  ​
  
  
  I could have used the term 'Beginning'. John the gospel and John's letters use this term to refer to the beginning of Jesus ministry. Jesus is a light which comes into creation the beginning whose beginning is earmarked in John 3:17 & 3:19. Revelation 21:2 mentions New Jerusalem which could be the same thing, or it could be the completion of Jesus work. James 1:17 says the Father of Lights "chose us to be a kind of first-fruits of all he created." This places Christians into the new creation. Personally I think Revelation is a timeless book, with most things happening in it continually; and that is one of the things that makes this view of the new creation easier for me to accept.​

• It seems to me he is speaking of all creation; earth, Adam and all his descendents and Christ Jesus.
  ​
  
  
  Yes, it does seem that way, but Christians are called firstfruits of creation by James; and the NT authors repeatedly hark back to the beginning as the time when they started with Jesus. Jesus is called the author and finisher of their faith. The beginning of a ministry being called a creation was not a new paradigm for them. Psalms 102 talks about the beginning of Israel and the beginning of creation as being intertwined, and he speaks about the end of it and hopes for a new beginning. Psalm 102:18 says "Let this be written for a future generation, that a people not yet created may praise the LORD:"​

• OK
  
  ​

  That is why its is reasonable to say that the Jews who went into captivity and were forced to serve idols are the example that Paul refers to in Romans 1. He warns us not to make their mistake of thinking ourselves wise, and this ties in closely with James and Isaiah 40 with his 'Voice calling...every mountain will be made low." This was the message that John the Baptist came preaching and its why the sects didn't like John the Baptist (not to be confused with John the brother of Jesus). Jesus carried forward John B's message, hammering away at factionalism, a form of idolatry since there is only one God. (Shema)
  ​

• Av I disagree. Explain to me with scripture in context how he's not concerned with what amounts to both Idolatry of their fellow man and adultery.
  ​
  
  
  This idolatry is what Paul is preaching against: being boastful. Christianity is founded upon Jeremiah 31:34 "No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me..."
  
  James warns that a wise person shows it through meekness and calls the tongue poisonous. Paul says he insists upon knowing only Christ crucified and does not seek to persuade with fine-sounding arguments. Jesus tells Nicodemus that Moses baptism is not enough. Jesus tells Peter that the Father revealed truth to him directly and not any man. On and on the NT authors discourage judging others on the basis of their beliefs.
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• I believe he speaks of that (idolatry) on its own.
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  I'm not going to tell you what to think, but I do appeal to your sense of mercy for the sake of homosexual persons. They are homosexual, and the Bible has been misinterpreted and this has hurt them.
  
  

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• This is true and he says it of all the sins he lists including man laying with man
  
  By now you understand that is not my view of it. I am not as learned as you; but I did not invent any of this either.
  
  
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• Jewish captivity tended to be related to idolatry and the sins that accompanied that sin.
  
  Yes, but idolatry does not consist of wooden heads. Asking for a king is idolatry. Anything except following the LORD directly is idolatry. Paul acknowledges the wrongness of a king, and he says Jesus must reign for a time but then "the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all" (I Corinthians 15:38) The idolatry of the kingship will be undone. This is one example of idolatry.
  
  
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• I thought "love your neighbor as you {love yourself} was Christianity's point.
  
  The Beatitudes (Matthew 5:1-11) taught by Jesus are about this and they are all talking about this same thing, loving your neighbor. Among them Jesus says "Blessed are the peacemakers". Loving God involves loving his image, and people are made in his image. This relates directly to honoring one another, considering each other to be better than oneself and it relates to denying yourself to follow Christ.
  
  
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• One thing I've learned about revelations, they do not contradict God's laws or the main points of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
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  Yes but you also know people are cruel, and they can change the truth of God into a lie through idolatry. Look at the last two millennium and you will see for yourself that Christians have been full of idolatry, arguing bitterly, even killing each other instead of honoring each other.

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[Draka]

I just want to say...thanks so much for the laughter before I go to bed tonight. Reading about "demons" produced from anal sex...what a hoot. I don't seem to recall..was it just anal sex involving two men, or just any anal sex? Not that I even believe in demons you know, but...whatever lol. I mean, I suppose one may claim I should know this stuff, being all witchy and all but..come on...demons? From anal sex no less? LOL