Homosexuality and religious.

[Vinayaka]

My dear wife recently has commented on what a beautiful country Canada is from watching YouTube.

Switch the topic. Here in Canada gay marriage is legal, and we have banned conversion therapy. Ask her if she thinks that's beautiful.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is relevant because it means sex isn't important to live a healthy relationship.

As I said before, my girlfriend is Bi-sexual, you think I am against gay people?

I mind my own business in my own relationship, what others do in their relationship is up to them.

This isn't about you. It's about a group of people who get discriminated against for being who they are.

 

[Vinayaka]

Bahai's trying to follow God messeage, if a person can't do it, that is on the person. Not on God or the messenger
Following a religious teaching isn't easy, it isn't meant to be easy. It will transforme the person.

You still haven't answered me as to whether or not you've signed the card yet? What about the obligatory prayers and donations? Do you know what happens to a Baha'i adherent if they neglect either of those 2?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Does it really matter what people who believe in Baha'u'llah say at all in here? I have nothing to prove to people like @Sheldon

Those who either do not believe in God or Baha’u’llah will criticise according to their understanding that there is no God and that God did not not send Manifestations but we Baha’is know that to be wrong. We believe that God exists and He is All Knowing and sent Manifestations to the earth with infallible guidance for humanity.

Baha’u’llah we believe speaks infallibly with the Voice of God and condemned homosexuality. Non Baha’is can argue it is discrimination and reject God and Baha’u’llah, that is their right.

But I believe in God and the infallibility of the Manifestations so I firmly believe that homosexuality is both immoral and unnatural and believe that God not only condemns it in the Baha’i Writings but in the Torah, the Gospels and the Holy Quran. I’m not ever going to oppose the wisdom of God but others are free to make all sorts of false accusations as they please. I believe that the Manifestation of God never appeases nor compromises but tells us the truth.

Let people oppose, but I’m backing God and His Manifestations.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's what the non-Bahais are doing in this thread ... trying to help our fellow human beings.

That was in reference to the suffering in Ukraine, Syria, Myanmar and Iran. The world needs a UN with teeth. What are you proposing?

 

[Vinayaka]

That was in reference to the suffering in Ukraine, Syria, Myanmar and Iran. The world needs a UN with teeth. What are you proposing?

And mine was for gay people everywhere, perhaps as high as 5% of the earth's population. But there is suffering all over, not just in these places. Does Perth have a food bank? My city does. I donate. I don't see any clear and obvious solutions to the world's problems, but one thing an individual can do is vote for smarter people in government. No racists, No homophobes. That sort of thing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I think what is clear here is that there have emerged two distinct contrasts in views. One, based on human notions, the other claimed to be through God and His Messengers.

I personally stick and stand by God and His Manifestations on this issue as God is infallible whereas man is not. So those trying to shake, rattle or get Baha’is to change their views are wasting their time because we stand by God and Baha’u’llah and not fallible, error prone human judgement.

The voice of criticism is a voice that indirectly reinforces the proclamation of its Cause. Unpopularity but serves to throw into greater relief the contrast between it and its adversaries.. (Shoghi Effendi)

There is a wide range of sexual abnormalities. Some people nowadays maintain that homosexuality is not an abnormality and that homosexuals should be encouraged to establish sexual relations with one or more partners of the same sex. The Faith, on the contrary, makes it abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality, is a great problem for the individual so afflicted, and that he or she should strive to overcome it. The social implications of such an attitude are very important. (House of Justice)

 

[F1fan]

Those who either do not believe in God or Baha’u’llah will criticise according to their understanding that there is no God and that God did not not send Manifestations but we Baha’is know that to be wrong. We believe that God exists and He is All Knowing and sent Manifestations to the earth with infallible guidance for humanity.

One of many other "one true God", right? As critical thinkers point out there is no factual basis for such belief. The fact that the teachings include a prejudice against gays is evidence that it isn't infallible. It may have been "infallible" in the 19th century, but it is flawed in the 2st century.

Baha’u’llah we believe speaks infallibly with the Voice of God and condemned homosexuality. Non Baha’is can argue it is discrimination and reject God and Baha’u’llah, that is their right.

And if you are mistaken? You've harmed a class of people for nothing more than allegiance to a fraud. The advantage you have is that none of Bahi ican be tested. So you can get away with whatever you like. The only saving grace for gays is that they have options, and can reject Bahai. And this includes non-gays who find the prejudice against gays repugnant.

But I believe in God and the infallibility of the Manifestations so I firmly believe that homosexuality is both immoral and unnatural and believe that God not only condemns it in the Baha’i Writings but in the Torah, the Gospels and the Holy Quran. I’m not ever going to oppose the wisdom of God but others are free to make all sorts of false accusations as they please. I believe that the Manifestation of God never appeases nor compromises but tells us the truth.

Let people oppose, but I’m backing God and His Manifestations.

Until an actual God shows up it is just your word and your integrity on the line. And as you know many good people on RF have a negative impression. You have the option to stand up and respect the dignity of gay people, but you reject them because you think your beliefs are valid. Your personal beliefs increase the suffering in the world.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And mine was for gay people everywhere, perhaps as high as 5% of the earth's population. But there is suffering all over, not just in these places. Does Perth have a food bank? My city does. I donate. I don't see any clear and obvious solutions to the world's problems, but one thing an individual can do is vote for smarter people in government. No racists, No homophobes. That sort of thing.

We can each only do the best we can. I’m not in Perth but I’d say it would have. Many areas in Australia have them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

One of many other "one true God", right? As critical thinkers point out there is no factual basis for such belief. The fact that the teachings include a prejudice against gays is evidence that it isn't infallible. It may have been "infallible" in the 19th century, but it is flawed in the 2st century.


And if you are mistaken? You've harmed a class of people for nothing more than allegiance to a fraud. The advantage you have is that none of Bahi ican be tested. So you can get away with whatever you like. The only saving grace for gays is that they have options, and can reject Bahai. And this includes non-gays who find the prejudice against gays repugnant.


Until an actual God shows up it is just your word and your integrity on the line. And as you know many good people on RF have a negative impression. You have the option to stand up and respect the dignity of gay people, but you reject them because you think your beliefs are valid. Your personal beliefs increase the suffering in the world.

Everyone is entitled to have their own views. I accept you believe differently but that doesn’t really mean as much to me as the fact you are an equal fellow human brother. So I would welcome you over to my home for a meal and as a friend whether you agree with me or not. I think a lot depends on foundational beliefs because they tend to dictate behaviour and my primary belief is the oneness and equality of humanity. So a person is first and only a person. I don’t see gay or black, white, rich or poor, atheist or religionists, easterner or westerner. Baha’u’llah teaches us to see the goodness within each person.

So in my home and heart all are welcome.

 

[F1fan]

I think what is clear here is that there have emerged two distinct contrasts in views. One, based on human notions, the other claimed to be through God and His Messengers.

God and Messengers have not been verified as real or authentic.

I personally stick and stand by God and His Manifestations on this issue as God is infallible whereas man is not. So those trying to shake, rattle or get Baha’is to change their views are wasting their time because we stand by God and Baha’u’llah and not fallible, error prone human judgement.

You are human, so thanks for admitting your judgment is error prone. Can you admit your judgment that a God exists could be mistaken? Or are you perfect in your judgments, as if a God yourself?

There is a wide range of sexual abnormalities. Some people nowadays maintain that homosexuality is not an abnormality....

Yes, experts in psychology. What do you have? A God not known to exist and a guy who claims to speak for an absent God. Not very impressive, is it?

... and that homosexuals should be encouraged to establish sexual relations with one or more partners of the same sex.

Who says this, exactly? Or are you not being honest? Could the immorality of your religion be causing a negative influence on you?

The Faith, on the contrary, makes it abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality, is a great problem for the individual so afflicted, and that he or she should strive to overcome it. The social implications of such an attitude are very important. (House of Justice)

And your Faith has no expertise to back it up. It doesn't have any actual God coming forth to verify it's all true either.

 

[Vinayaka]

The only saving grace for gays is that they have options, and can reject Bahai. And this includes non-gays who find the prejudice against gays repugnant.

.

In my research a lot of people have not joined or left after they joined exactly for that reason.

 

[F1fan]

Everyone is entitled to have their own views.

Indeed. If they are controversial it's best to keep them private.

I accept you believe differently but that doesn’t really mean as much to me as the fact you are an equal fellow human brother.

But you have adoted a dogma that says gays aren't eqqual. And that is your moral failure. It is your choice.

So I would welcome you over to my home for a meal and as a friend whether you agree with me or not. I think a lot depends on foundational beliefs because they tend to dictate behaviour and my primary belief is the oneness and equality of humanity. So a person is first and only a person. I don’t see gay or black, white, rich or poor, atheist or religionists, easterner or westerner. Baha’u’llah teaches us to see the goodness within each person.

So in my home and heart all are welcome.

We can be cordial, but I won't agree to adopt a religious dogma that prejudices against our fellow human beings. It isn't right. It causes harm and should be rejected. Bahai can decide to change it. That they refuse is a moral failure.

 

[Vinayaka]

Everyone is entitled to have their own views.

Not really. If those views involve hate speech or other morally repugnant ideas, are they entitled? Is Putin entitled to his views about Ukraine. Were the European conquerors entitled to their views about indigenous people?

 

[F1fan]

In my research a lot of people have not joined or left after they joined exactly for that reason.

What gets me is that Bahai is not a particularly impressive religion. Nor is it the only option for humans to adopt. It's not like it is Bahai or nothing, which I could accetp that some will compromise their moral to have an ideology to follow. But there are many options, and that includes many liberal options that do not prejudice against anyone. Even Methodists are allowing women and gays in their leadership. It's imressive.

 

[loverofhumanity]

God and Messengers have not been verified as real or authentic.


You are human, so thanks for admitting your judgment is error prone. Can you admit your judgment that a God exists could be mistaken? Or are you perfect in your judgments, as if a God yourself?


Yes, experts in psychology. What do you have? A God not known to exist and a guy who claims to speak for an absent God. Not very impressive, is it?


Who says this, exactly? Or are you not being honest? Could the immorality of your religion be causing a negative influence on you?


And your Faith has no expertise to back it up. It doesn't have any actual God coming forth to verify it's all true either.

Above all know that I respect you as a person even though we may not agree on everything.

Verified? To me yes to you no. I have investigated the claims of Baha’u’llah and each and every other Prophet by studying deeply Their Lives and teachings and verified them for myself. For example I studied the Life of Muhammad as well as deeply the Quran over many years. The same goes for Jesus and the Gospels and Moses and the Torah and Krishna and the Gita and so on. Many years of research not just instant or blind belief. So I have verified to my satisfaction that They speak for God with an infallible Voice in human form but inspired by the Holy Spirit of God not human error prone reasoning.

My judgement that God exists comes not from my error prone human mind but from the Holy Spirit embedded in the Words of God recently Baha’u’llah as explained below.

But the bounty of the Holy Spirit gives the true method of comprehension which is infallible and indubitable. This is through the help of the Holy Spirit which comes to man, and this is the condition in which certainty can alone be attained.
'Abdu'l-Bahá

God knows all so I believe that in His good time it will be proven that homosexuality is an abnormality. For now please feel free to wipe the floor with me. They do that to all people who stand firm. We are mocked and ridiculed but the tables will turn I'm sure of it.

So please feel most welcome all of you here to have your fun while you can. Lol
My reliance is totally on God.


All who stand up in the cause of God will be persecuted and misunderstood. It hath ever been so, and will ever be. Let neither enemy nor friend disturb your composure, destroy your happiness, deter your accomplishment. Rely wholly upon God. Then will persecution and slander make you the more radiant. The designs of your enemies will rebound upon them. They, not you, will suffer. A large multitude of people will arise against you, showing oppression, expressing contumely and derision, shunning your society, and heaping upon you ridicule. However, the Heavenly Father will illumine you to such an extent that, like unto the rays of the sun, you shall scatter the dark clouds of superstition, shine gloriously in the midst of Heaven and illumine the face of the earth. You must make firm the feet at the time when these trials transpire, and demonstrate forbearance and patience.

‘Abdu’l-Bahá

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not really. If those views involve hate speech or other morally repugnant ideas, are they entitled? Is Putin entitled to his views about Ukraine. Were the European conquerors entitled to their views about indigenous people?

It depends really. Who decides what is moral, right or wrong, good or bad? Racism is condemned because Baha’u’llah condemned it as He did slavery. A lot of evil practices were accepted before Baha’u’llah released His Creative Words which instilled a new mindset into the world. Homosexuals have begun to be recognised as equal human beings because of Baha’u’llah’s teaching of the oneness of mankind. So although it is considered wrong all people are to be considered as equals including gays because God has stated it in this age.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Indeed. If they are controversial it's best to keep them private.


But you have adoted a dogma that says gays aren't eqqual. And that is your moral failure. It is your choice.


We can be cordial, but I won't agree to adopt a religious dogma that prejudices against our fellow human beings. It isn't right. It causes harm and should be rejected. Bahai can decide to change it. That they refuse is a moral failure.

Gays are equal. They are fellow humans. All people are equal human beings. Just because you believe something is wrong doesn’t mean you hate a person. People in families do wrong things but a family member is not normally hated or despised for it.

I consider homosexuality abnormal but that doesn’t mean I hate homosexuals. I have homosexual friends and they are always welcome in my home. You’re really making up something that’s untrue. I don’t hate anyone because they are different or don’t accept my views. Just because I don’t endorse homosexuality doesn’t mean I am an enemy and this is unfortunately the injustice that is being practised against Baha’is here.

People seek an endorsement that homosexuality is moral and normal and that’s the real issue I believe and until they get it they intend to try and disparage our religion as much as possible. But I believe that there are other motivating factors which involve prejudices against God and His Manifestations because just about all those involved dont believe in God or His Prophets so it is understandable that this prejudice is behind a lot of negative responses.

For if people accepted the teachings of the Prophets then this topic would be a moot point.

So it’s more to me about questioning God than about homosexuality.

 

[dybmh]

There is a wide range of sexual abnormalities. Some people nowadays maintain that homosexuality is not an abnormality and that homosexuals should be encouraged to establish sexual relations with one or more partners of the same sex. The Faith, on the contrary, makes it abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality, is a great problem for the individual so afflicted, and that he or she should strive to overcome it. The social implications of such an attitude are very important. (House of Justice)

I'm curious, when was this written?

 

[We Never Know]

Gays are equal. They are fellow humans. All people are equal human beings. Just because you believe something is wrong doesn’t mean you hate a person. People in families do wrong things but a family member is not normally hated or despised for it.

I consider homosexuality abnormal but that doesn’t mean I hate homosexuals. I have homosexual friends and they are always welcome in my home. You’re really making up something that’s untrue. I don’t hate anyone because they are different or don’t accept my views. Just because I don’t endorse homosexuality doesn’t mean I am an enemy and this is unfortunately the injustice that is being practised against Baha’is here.

People seek an endorsement that homosexuality is moral and normal and that’s the real issue I believe and until they get it they intend to try and disparage our religion as much as possible. But I believe that there are other motivating factors which involve prejudices against God and His Manifestations because just about all those involved dont believe in God or His Prophets so it is understandable that this prejudice is behind a lot of negative responses.

For if people accepted the teachings of the Prophets then this topic would be a moot point.

So it’s more to me about questioning God than about homosexuality.

"All people are equal human beings"

I strongly disagree. Pedophiles, rapists, etc aren't equal humans because they choose victims and cause life long trauma.
They should all be put to death.