Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

I think it’s being unthoughtful and even selfish for any of us not to be seeking for a way to help our fellow human beings. If there is a solution then we should all get behind it. It doesn’t matter who’s idea it is. People need rescuing from oppression and war and we who stand by watching are guilty if we do not even speak up about it.

And how does that not relate to what religions have done to gays?

"Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you..."​

Gays have been hatred, condemned, marginalized, killed because religions have said that God says it's evil and wrong. It hasn't been that long that gays fought for equal rights. Should those rights be taken away? According to the teachings of the Baha'i Faith they should. If homosexuality is to be included in that quote from Baha'u'llah, then Baha'is have been called to "purge" the world from it and other "evil" passions.

The Baha'i Faith does not want people of the same sex to have sexual relations with each other. The Baha'i Faith does not recognize gay marriages. Why have so many in society taking the side of gays, but the Baha'i Faith hasn't and won't? Because of a few words written by their prophet more than 100 years ago. And interpreted, infallibly, by his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to mean homosexuality is wrong and is forbidden. If you're right, then enforce your laws on gay Baha'is. But if you're wrong, then your religion is not the infallible truth from God. It is the writings from a man who believed God was speaking to him in a middle Eastern country and culture that was anti-gay. What would we expect him to say. But do those beliefs still hold true?

Baha’u’llah came to help these people and Baha’is see it as a defective system that is responsible for not being able to address these grave situations and so is thriving day and night to encourage the world to establish a just system where the tyrant, oppressor and war criminal can no longer rule.

Then Baha'is go to Ukraine. Stand in front of the Russian tanks, and say, "No! No more war. No more killing innocent people." You'll probably get lots of non-Baha'is to join you. You will be heroes and change the course of history. The people that put a stop to war by putting their own lives at risk to protect a people from a tyrannical oppressor.

Oh, and again, how exactly did the Europeans end up "owning" Australia? And how did they treat the native inhabitants? All of our ancestors were guilty of being the oppressors.

 

[CG Didymus]

Bahai's trying to follow God messeage, if a person can't do it, that is on the person. Not on God or the messenger
Following a religious teaching isn't easy, it isn't meant to be easy. It will transforme the person.

Yes, it is not easy. One of these quotes is from the Bab, so maybe Baha'is don't have to do as he says....

Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves . . . mental fantasies, while Bahá’u’lláh, in the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us not to indulge our passions and in one of His well-known Tablets ‘Abdu’l-Bahá encourages us to keep our “secret thoughts pure”.

Universal House of Justice, 1981, Lights of Guidance, p. 364
God forgiveth you your nocturnal emissions and masturbation. But know ye the value of your seed, for your seed is the cause of the creation of one who worshippeth God. Keep your seed in the exquisite place. The purpose of this command is that perhaps the fruit of your existence will come to the aid of the religion of God. When semen cometh out by your own free will, make the ablutions, prostrate yourself and say this verse nineteen

times: 'Thou art the Most Pure and Sublime, O my God! Thou art free from error and lack. There is none other God save Thee! I proclaim Thy sublimity, and I am of those who know that Thou art the Pure.'"

Báb, Arabic Bayan, Vahid 8, Báb 10; provisional translation...
​

Here's a Baha'i article on Chastity...

To understand the broader definition of chastity, this passage in The Advent of Divine Justice by Shoghi Effendi says:

Such a chaste and holy life, with its implications of modesty, purity, temperance, decency, and clean-mindedness, involves no less than the exercise of moderation in all that pertains to dress, language, amusements, and all artistic and literary avocations. – p. 30.

My understanding of this extract expands the meaning well beyond our sexual lives. Chastity seems to pertain not only to sex, but our thoughts, our language, and our dress and comportment.
​

Pure in thought and dress? Like you said, it's not easy.

 

[CG Didymus]

I think what is clear here is that there have emerged two distinct contrasts in views. One, based on human notions, the other claimed to be through God and His Messengers.

There is a wide range of sexual abnormalities. Some people nowadays maintain that homosexuality is not an abnormality and that homosexuals should be encouraged to establish sexual relations with one or more partners of the same sex. The Faith, on the contrary, makes it abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality, is a great problem for the individual so afflicted, and that he or she should strive to overcome it. The social implications of such an attitude are very important. (House of Justice)

This is important... "claimed to be through God".

And this is correct, the Faith has made it "abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality..." It is a "problem" for the person "so afflicted". They can't stay the same. They should "strive to overcome" the affliction of being gay.

If that's what Baha'is believe, and they believe that it came from God, then how can they ignore it? It has "social implications". Baha'is are obligated to fix the problem and not ignore it, right? Yet, they do, for the most part, try to ignore it and say, "it is between the individual and God". But you love the people, just not their behavior. Well, does true love, God's love, leave them to themselves are tries to fix the problem. If they are "abnormal" and "afflicted", then help them. If not, let them live their lives and accepted them and not your religion judge them.

 

[Truthseeker]

Yes it really does matter what Baha'i say, because it might impact a reader in some way. Again, as I said before, I'm not anti-Baha'i, I'm anti homophobia.

You've been anti-Baha'i for as long as I've been here. @Seeker of White Light, take note.

 

[Truthseeker]

Bahai's trying to follow God messeage, if a person can't do it, that is on the person. Not on God or the messenger
Following a religious teaching isn't easy, it isn't meant to be easy. It will transforme the person.

Very logical.

 

[CG Didymus]

People seek an endorsement that homosexuality is moral and normal and that’s the real issue I

But the endorsement of the Baha'i Faith and other conservative religions is not going to come.

So it’s more to me about questioning God than about homosexuality.

Or, it's that they have accepted gays as being okay and as normal as anybody else, but a religion says it is not normal and is wrong because God said so... or a man, who they believe to be a manifestation of God, said so. So, then comes the usual questions... How do we know this guy is a manifestation? And how do we know there is a God?

 

[Truthseeker]

Then you don't belong to the Baha'i faith? When did you renounce that? I must have missed that part. /s

Seriously though, have you signed the card yet?

This is ridiculous! Blatantly trying to trick him from being a Baha'i, because he is new. However, I have news for you, it isn't working!

 

[Truthseeker]

But I'm not an atheist, I'm a Hindu. My God loves everyone. Hinduism is open to all, including gays of course.

So is Baha'i.

 

[Trailblazer]

Baha'i is not homophobic, if you want to believe it is, that is up to you.
I am just as much a Baha'i as any other Baha'i.

No, we are not homophobic and you are as much a Baha'i as the rest of us.
There is nothing more arrogant than people who speak for us and say we are homophobic.

 

[danieldemol]

Will there be a future discovery in science?

Unlikely because if it was provable that leaving copper in its mine for seventy years would turn it into gold there have been rich Baha'i since the time of Baha'u'llah who could have done it.
161 years later nobody has managed to do it.

So the most logical conclusion is that Baha'u'llah was plain wrong.

In my opinion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

But there are mixed messages. One is equality for all, and the other is not equality for all.

Baha'i teaching is very clear what is right for a Baha'i, the teaching speak about if a Baha'i do something impropper. The teaching does not speak about non Baha'is

So relax.

 

[Spirit of Light]

No he can't.

Yes he can.

 

[Spirit of Light]

You still haven't answered me as to whether or not you've signed the card yet? What about the obligatory prayers and donations? Do you know what happens to a Baha'i adherent if they neglect either of those 2?

Why should I answer you about my private practice as a Baha'i?

All you do is speaking Baha'i down.

Are you done?

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you done?

I doubt it.

 

[Trailblazer]

What about the obligatory prayers and donations? Do you know what happens to a Baha'i adherent if they neglect either of those 2?

I know, because I have been a Baha'i for 52 years.
Nothing happens.

 

[Spirit of Light]

I doubt it.

I am sure he isn't

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Unlikely because if it was provable that leaving copper in its mine for seventy years would turn it into gold there have been rich Baha'i since the time of Baha'u'llah who could have done it.
161 years later nobody has managed to do it.

So the most logical conclusion is that Baha'u'llah was plain wrong.

In my opinion.

I would offer who wants to? I am happy to work for my families living, we have no need to create a wealth outside honest work.

Also, I would ask as to who has that hidden secret, the secret included with those passages?

Obviously science has not yet been given it, or it it but a metaphor? Who is to say that this is not a challenge to our literal mind?

The fuller passage.

"Consider the doubts which they who have joined partners with God have instilled into the hearts of the people of this land. "Is it ever possible," they ask, "for copper to be transmuted into gold?" Say, Yes, by my Lord, it is possible. Its secret, however, lieth hidden in Our Knowledge. We will reveal it unto whom We will. Whoso doubteth Our power, let him ask the Lord his God, that He may disclose unto him the secret, and assure him of its truth. That copper can be turned into gold is in itself sufficient proof that gold can, in like manner, be transmuted into copper, if they be of them that can apprehend this truth. Every mineral can be made to acquire the density, form, and substance of each and every other mineral. The knowledge thereof is with Us in the Hidden Book." (Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings, sec. 97)

So without that knowledge, what else can be said?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You still haven't answered me as to whether or not you've signed the card yet? What about the obligatory prayers and donations? Do you know what happens to a Baha'i adherent if they neglect either of those 2?

That is a personal choice no one should be badgered about.

Prayers and funds are left entirely up to the individual. The treasurer of a community will share writings on what Baha'u'llah has offered about funds for a cause.

Giving to the fund is a bounty only a Baha'i can participate in. When you look at the world centre in Haifa, that was built only by Bahai funds, in the vision of a future and just world.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes. The people in the article felt horrible. He tried so hard and got nowhere. The Baha'i faith was the cause of that. He really wanted to be a Baha'i because he believed in Baha'u'llah, and all of the rest of the good things the religion meant to him. He just had one problem, and that was that he was gay. So yes he was excluded from a religion he loved and respected.

Sorry, had to get back to this reply to see why the conversation unfolded.

Are you aware of the other side of the story? Most likely not, as even Baha'is would not be and those that do would keep it confidential.

So the issue is. Baha'u'llah has a law, given guidelines on that law as to how it must be practiced and given a court of appeal for any decision a believer wishes to clarify.

The law of chasity applies until one is legally married and a marriage can only happen between a man and a women.

That cannot be changed and Baha'u'llah offered that we should joyfully accept those laws, not go about fighting to change them.

So I ask, if you really love, do you try to change that love to suit your preferences, or go even further and fight the foundation of that love?

Regards Tony

 

[YoursTrue]

We already know it isn't, since it includes a typically human prejudice against gay people.

Quod erat demonstrandum

May I ask what it is that you personally look forward to? I don't mean in this life, unless you think this life is all there is.