Homosexuality and religious.

[loverofhumanity]

I'm curious, when was this written?

The letters of the House of Justice regarding homosexuality are based upon the laws of Baha’u’llah revealed for this age. It was written in 1992.

 

[loverofhumanity]

"All people are equal human beings"

I strongly disagree. Pedophiles, rapists, etc aren't equal humans because they choose victims and cause life long trauma.
They should all be put to death.

You are speaking about acts because before they committed these acts they were considered equal members of society. But you are correct that once they have perpetrated such acts they forfeit certain rights and status.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You are speaking about acts because before they committed these acts they were considered equal members of society. But you are correct that once they have perpetrated such acts they forfeit certain rights and status.

But they are still humans. Even Hitler to the end was a human.

 

[Vinayaka]

What gets me is that Bahai is not a particularly impressive religion. Nor is it the only option for humans to adopt. It's not like it is Bahai or nothing, which I could accetp that some will compromise their moral to have an ideology to follow. But there are many options, and that includes many liberal options that do not prejudice against anyone. Even Methodists are allowing women and gays in their leadership. It's imressive.

So true. There were numerous people talking the same stuff before and after the days of Baha'u'llah. It's an interesting psychological study for sure.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And how does that not relate to what religions have done to gays?

"Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery. Avoid them, O concourse of the faithful. By the righteousness of God! Ye have been called into being to purge the world from the defilement of evil passions. This is what the Lord of all mankind hath enjoined upon you..."​

Gays have been hatred, condemned, marginalized, killed because religions have said that God says it's evil and wrong. It hasn't been that long that gays fought for equal rights. Should those rights be taken away? According to the teachings of the Baha'i Faith they should. If homosexuality is to be included in that quote from Baha'u'llah, then Baha'is have been called to "purge" the world from it and other "evil" passions.

The Baha'i Faith does not want people of the same sex to have sexual relations with each other. The Baha'i Faith does not recognize gay marriages. Why have so many in society taking the side of gays, but the Baha'i Faith hasn't and won't? Because of a few words written by their prophet more than 100 years ago. And interpreted, infallibly, by his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, to mean homosexuality is wrong and is forbidden. If you're right, then enforce your laws on gay Baha'is. But if you're wrong, then your religion is not the infallible truth from God. It is the writings from a man who believed God was speaking to him in a middle Eastern country and culture that was anti-gay. What would we expect him to say. But do those beliefs still hold true?

Then Baha'is go to Ukraine. Stand in front of the Russian tanks, and say, "No! No more war. No more killing innocent people." You'll probably get lots of non-Baha'is to join you. You will be heroes and change the course of history. The people that put a stop to war by putting their own lives at risk to protect a people from a tyrannical oppressor.

Oh, and again, how exactly did the Europeans end up "owning" Australia? And how did they treat the native inhabitants? All of our ancestors were guilty of being the oppressors.

It’s a law revealed by God and I believe God is right eternally.

Baha’u’llah states that the order is defective so it is up to the people on earth to erect a just order. All the world He stated must unite against the aggressor but we have east and west at loggerheads so the aggression continues.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It’s a law revealed by God and I believe God is right eternally.

Baha’u’llah states that the order is defective so it is up to the people on earth to erect a just order. All the world He stated must unite against the aggressor but we have east and west at loggerheads so the aggression continues.

But that is not just about your understanding of a just order.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This is important... "claimed to be through God".

And this is correct, the Faith has made it "abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality..." It is a "problem" for the person "so afflicted". They can't stay the same. They should "strive to overcome" the affliction of being gay.

If that's what Baha'is believe, and they believe that it came from God, then how can they ignore it? It has "social implications". Baha'is are obligated to fix the problem and not ignore it, right? Yet, they do, for the most part, try to ignore it and say, "it is between the individual and God". But you love the people, just not their behavior. Well, does true love, God's love, leave them to themselves are tries to fix the problem. If they are "abnormal" and "afflicted", then help them. If not, let them live their lives and accepted them and not your religion judge them.

It is an individual struggle just like many of us struggle with our own challenges. When I joined I stopped drinking alcohol and gambling immediately but for others it takes a lifetime.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It is an individual struggle just like many of us struggle with our own challenges. When I joined I stopped drinking alcohol and gambling immediately but for others it takes a lifetime.

Yeah, but we all don't need your religion for that. There are other ways. I accept that your way work for you. But I still do it differently.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But the endorsement of the Baha'i Faith and other conservative religions is not going to come.

Or, it's that they have accepted gays as being okay and as normal as anybody else, but a religion says it is not normal and is wrong because God said so... or a man, who they believe to be a manifestation of God, said so. So, then comes the usual questions... How do we know this guy is a manifestation? And how do we know there is a God?

Great questions CG. It all comes down to ‘is Baha’u’llah Who He claims to be’? That’s the real issue which you have so wisely pointed out. I personally think very few have fully investigated His claims but most don’t even bother to do so.

Maybe you can one day start a thread.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Great questions CG. It all comes down to ‘is Baha’u’llah Who He claims to be’? That’s the real issue which you have so wisely pointed out. I personally think very few have fully investigated His claims but most don’t even bother to do so.

Maybe you can one day start a thread.

No, I don't have to. I have another faith and other books than you.

 

[Secret Chief]

Baha’u’llah states that the order is defective so it is up to the people on earth to erect a just order.

Obviously all contemporary human societies require an economic model in order to function. The current model is essentially global capitalism, which I agree is defective. So, according to Baha’u’llah, what economic model should the people on earth change to for it to be a just order?

 

[loverofhumanity]

But they are still humans. Even Hitler to the end was a human.

But his status changed very quickly to monster.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Obviously all contemporary human societies require an economic model in order to function. The current model is essentially global capitalism, which I agree is defective. So, according to Baha’u’llah, what economic model should the people on earth change to for it to be a just order?

That is a massive topic too difficult to answer in a single post as there are so many elements involved among them the elimination of war and its enormous expense. Then there is the elimination of the extremes of wealth and poverty, the worlds resources to be equitably distributed and profit sharing so that all have shares in a business, that the oneness of humanity becoming legal worldwide. That is everyone becomes a world citizen entitled to things like work, free education, free universal Medicare. And agriculture is considered to be the foundation of a good economy. It begins with the farmer.

Agriculture: the Secret Ingredient to Global Peace and Prosperity

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I used to believe Baha’is were mentally deranged and tried to convert them away from Baha’u’llah

Do you think that's credible? You've witnessed a half-dozen non-Baha'i interacting with an approximately equal number of Baha'i here, none who have called the believers deranged, and none who are trying to convert the Baha'i. My advice would be to jettison the religion and keep the parts that resonate with one's nature, and it's probably obvious that I feel that way, but I don't give believers who are also strangers unsolicited life advice.

Those who either do not believe in God or Baha’u’llah will criticise according to their understanding that there is no God and that God did not not send Manifestations but we Baha’is know that to be wrong.

And here's the argument against strong atheism again. Who are you directing that to here? As far as I know, nobody posting here is saying that there is no god. Critically thinking empiricists understand that anybody who claims to know that gods do or don't exist doesn't actually know what he claims to know. He cannot know that there is a god from anything ever written by anybody, and he has no special senses or neural circuits to experience any deity directly.

There is a wide range of sexual abnormalities. Some people nowadays maintain that homosexuality is not an abnormality and that homosexuals should be encouraged to establish sexual relations with one or more partners of the same sex. The Faith, on the contrary, makes it abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality, is a great problem for the individual so afflicted, and that he or she should strive to overcome it. The social implications of such an attitude are very important. (House of Justice)

No, the Faith doesn't make abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality. It just declares it such.

Gays are equal.

You really might benefit from a little self-examination. You and the other Baha'i are probably all unable to see how you contradict yourself in these last two quotes, but it is glaringly apparent to others. Would you care if that were true? Would you want to know? Maybe not.

Who decides what is moral, right or wrong, good or bad?

We each do. You decided for yourself back when you opted for Baha'ism and chose its morality. Now, they decide for you, but that is also your choice.

 

[CG Didymus]

Switch the topic. Here in Canada gay marriage is legal, and we have banned conversion therapy. Ask her if she thinks that's beautiful.

Well, the country is still beautiful, but the government? Do Baha'is believe the country is getting too liberal? Or is the Baha'i Faith to religiously conservative? And would they call it "beautiful" and support a government that requires gays to go through conversion therapy or to remain celibate? I don't see how they wouldn't. It is what they believe God wants.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Faith, on the contrary, makes it abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality, is a great problem for the individual so afflicted, and that he or she should strive to overcome it. The social implications of such an attitude are very important. (House of Justice)

So, what do you do with "abnormal" people? You can't treat them like you do "normal" people. And what part of them is sick? Is it something in their heads? They aren't thinking right? They are confused? And Baha'is believe they should "strive" to overcome it. What therapies do Baha'i recommend for them?

 

[CG Didymus]

Everyone is entitled to have their own views.

Does God really want people to believe whatever they wish to, or for them to believe in him? The one who is the truth and knows what is, supposedly, best for them?

Baha'is can say that they accept everyone, but what they really mean is that they accept that they are wrong but have to be nice about it and put up with them. In the end you'd want them to change and see the "truth" that the Baha'i Faith is from God and is the only path to peace and unity. And we can't have peace and unity with everyone believing different things, can we?

 

[CG Didymus]

I consider homosexuality abnormal but that doesn’t mean I hate homosexuals.

Again, if you love them and don't hate them, then what do you do to help them to become "normal"? You wouldn't leave them in their "abnormal" condition if you had the knowledge and ability to help them "overcome" their affliction? But I get the feeling that Baha'is don't know how to correct their condition of homosexuality. Or... maybe it would be easier to correct the flaw in the Baha'i teachings and accept homosexuality as being okay and part of being "normal"?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
I consider homosexuality abnormal but that doesn’t mean I hate homosexuals. ...

So how do you cure it?

 

[dybmh]

A question for the Baha'i:

If the UHJ retracts its previous position removing "unnatural" and "affliction", would you change your opinion to match their's?