Homosexuality and religious.

[CG Didymus]

No, the Faith doesn't make abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality. It just declares it such.

The Faith, on the contrary, makes it abundantly clear that homosexuality is an abnormality,

Yes, Baha'is how have you made it "abundantly" clear? Unless, by that you mean, God said so and that settles it.

But again, for a religion that believes in science, where is the science that supports your beliefs that homosexuality is "abnormal" and "unnatural"? I asked about it being "unnatural" earlier and one Baha'is said that was the stupidest question he'd ever heard, or something like that. The only answer Baha'is seem to have is, "God said so."

 

[Spirit of Light]

Could it be that your anger is a clue that holding onto religious dogma isn’t as good as it feels to the ego? You point to others as a cause, but the criticism is valid, and you put yourself in the middle, and you keep engaging as if you have a lesson that hasn’t sunk in quite yet.


And have you considered the possibility that Bahai isnt what it seems?

I have a ton to learn still, and what you see now is not anger, it is more of an annoyance , but i get over it, don't worry.

Baha'i teaching saved my life, so to me it is the real deal.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

On what side are you on? You seem to support both sides and going back and forth according to whom you speak with?

Can I offer a thought here. In the end it is about compassion and acceptance.

I personally am on both sides. I feel for the couple, I am sad that they are faced with such a choice, that they are not yet able to reconcile in faith.

At the same time, with Faith, I can offer that with some Law, there are wisdoms we are yet to find, or accept.

I personally see it has a lot to do with nature and nurture, yet I personally consider that science will also find issues with the poisons and chemicals we have introduced into the environment, which in turn disrup neurologically pathways in the womb and in the developing years of a child.

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

Can I offer a thought here. In the end it is about compassion and acceptance.

I personally am on both sides. I feel for the couple, I am sad that they are faced with such a choice, that they are not yet able to reconcile in faith.

At the same time, with Faith, I can offer that with some Law, there are wisdoms we are yet to find, or accept.

I personally see it has a lot to do with nature and nurture, yet I personally consider that science will also find issues with the poisons and chemicals we have introduced into the environment, which in turn disrup neurologically pathways in the womb and in the developing years of a child.

Regards Tony

You are a wise man Tony.
Every time you speak its like my heart opens up to new wisdom.

Than you for leading me in the right direction.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thank you for these words Tony
Yes for faith believers there are always tests, every day. And i believe i going through my own tests will in the end make me stronger, and ready to just let the critique come.

Still i do get a bit annoyed, but it is more easy the more i read Bahai'u'llahs words of wisdom

I feel your pain. I went to church yesterday. I do not partake of the wine and the bread, but say a silent prayer at that time.

The church partake of the wine and the bread and say they will continue to do that until the promise is fulfilled and that Christ returns.

What can one say, but to be so frustrated as not to be able to say anything!

"Blessed is the spot, and the house, and the place, and the city, and the heart, and the mountain, and the refuge, and the cave, and the valley, and the land, and the sea, and the island, and the meadow where mention of God hath been made, and His praise glorified" Baha'u'llah

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Well, the country is still beautiful, but the government? Do Baha'is believe the country is getting too liberal? Or is the Baha'i Faith to religiously conservative? And would they call it "beautiful" and support a government that requires gays to go through conversion therapy or to remain celibate? I don't see how they wouldn't. It is what they believe God wants.

Pretty scary to think of certain groups being in control. There are some countries on this planet right now I wouldn't want to live in. Having long hair and being Hindu would be enough to be singled out. Let alone being gay. Ahh, the irony. Harmony my way isn't harmony at all.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You are a wise man Tony.
Every time you speak its like my heart opens up to new wisdom.

Than you for leading me in the right direction.

We help each other Seeker of White Light. I have learnt a lot from you and many other RF's over the past years. I have enjoyed watching your journey, a journey that we partake of all our lives.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Someone could claim he wasn't in his divine nature when he said it? He was in his human nature at that moment?

I think Baha'i claim that about other prophets, specifically Moses.

That's a good question. It seems like there was a time prior to Moses and Baha'u'llah being "anointed". Were they manifestations before that but just didn't know it? People like Krishna and Jesus seem more like they were born special and do fit this concept of "divine" manifestations. But both are believed to be more than that and were "incarnations" not "manifestations".

But with Moses, I question the whole concept of "manifestations" and argue that Moses seemed to be an ordinary man and not a special creation that was like a perfectly polished mirror that reflected God. Even after Moses was called by God, he still acted very human and made some mistakes.

But with most all religions, there is always a time when "God's" laws don't seem to fit into society anymore. The conservative side of a religion tries to keep those laws in affect. And the liberal sides want to get in step with the times and make some changes to the laws. The Baha'i Faith is already facing that. Is their prophet really infallible?

 

[Vinayaka]

You are one of the theists on RF who seems to have virtually all of the same values as humanists, but with a metaphysics that includes gods that doesn't interfere with the way you process information or deform your worldview the way the Abrahamic religions do. You are free to make moral judgments about homosexuality that are just, loving, and rational like any humanist, but unlike those with gods who deprecate homosexuals.

Thank you. On a Hindu forum I frequent, a trans person announced the transition, and got liked by almost everyone there. A few homophobes showed their faces but got shot down pretty quickly. We're cool with sexuality, for the most part.

I like the adjective 'humane' as it is derived from human. Humanists are humane.

 

[Vinayaka]

So, what do you do with "abnormal" people? You can't treat them like you do "normal" people. And what part of them is sick? Is it something in their heads? They aren't thinking right? They are confused? And Baha'is believe they should "strive" to overcome it. What therapies do Baha'i recommend for them?

Gee, there has to be a 'cure', don't you think?

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes, Baha'is how have you made it "abundantly" clear? Unless, by that you mean, God said so and that settles it.

But again, for a religion that believes in science, where is the science that supports your beliefs that homosexuality is "abnormal" and "unnatural"? I asked about it being "unnatural" earlier and one Baha'is said that was the stupidest question he'd ever heard, or something like that. The only answer Baha'is seem to have is, "God said so."

Oh but you're so anti-Baha'i. Little wonder you would say that.

 

[CG Didymus]

If you were pushed to the limit every single day about your life, your belief and faith and not one word you said was accepted by critiques,you too would lose temper from time to time.

As one of the huge baha'i critiques in RF you should know what is said toward baha'is every day,

Okay, keep doing what you're doing. I'm just saying it is what your religion teaches.

"Among the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is His declaration that religion must be the cause of love and fellowship, must be the source of unity in the hearts of men. If religion becomes a cause of enmity and hatred, it is evident that the abolition of religion is preferable to its promulgation . . .”

“If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning . . .”

“The teaching work “should be tempered with wisdom--not that wisdom which requireth one to be silent and forgetful of such an obligation, but rather that which requireth one to display divine tolerance, love, kindness, patience, a goodly character, and holy deeds . . . ” ​

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

That's a good question. It seems like there was a time prior to Moses and Baha'u'llah being "anointed". Were they manifestations before that but just didn't know it? People like Krishna and Jesus seem more like they were born special and do fit this concept of "divine" manifestations. But both are believed to be more than that and were "incarnations" not "manifestations".

But with Moses, I question the whole concept of "manifestations" and argue that Moses seemed to be an ordinary man and not a special creation that was like a perfectly polished mirror that reflected God. Even after Moses was called by God, he still acted very human and made some mistakes.

But with most all religions, there is always a time when "God's" laws don't seem to fit into society anymore. The conservative side of a religion tries to keep those laws in affect. And the liberal sides want to get in step with the times and make some changes to the laws. The Baha'i Faith is already facing that. Is their prophet really infallible?

One way I deal with it is that God is in practice a placeholder for some peoples hopes and morality. But if there is a God, God doesn't make sense intellectually, but I still use God as that placeholder for hope, but not for morality. For morality I am a human in an apparently natural world.

In other words I use God a coping tool, because it works for me, but for the everyday world I am a naturalist when it comes to being in the world.

 

[Vinayaka]

I was there when Vinayaka first got involved in commenting on Baha'i beliefs. The Baha'i claim was the Krishna was the founder of Hinduism. Is that true? Or was he pointing out a belief that some Baha'is held that was wrong?

And it could just as easily be said that Baha'is are anti-Hindu, although they claim to believe it is a true and revealed religion from God. Yet, name one Hindu sect that Baha'is believe are teaching the truth from God? I ask this all the time of Baha'is, because Baha'is don't believe that any other religion is perfectly teaching the truth from God. All of them have something wrong, and some have lots of things wrong.

So, to not be "anti-Baha'i", would be for them to admit that they and their religion is wrong. Instead, what happens? People in other religions point out the things they believe are wrong about the Baha'i Faith. What else should we or could we expect?

You remember your history, and indeed that's what first drew me to the discussion. It evolved from there. (I'm guessing 4 years back now ... we also used to have Old Badger who would post occasionally, as he was married to a Baha'i. I wonder if he's still around at all. You and I could both point to far more critical critiques of the Baha'i faith, but I restrain myself to the topic at hand, which is homophobia.

Yes, it's interesting that disagreeing morphs into 'anti', but hey I've had it morph into 'hate' which is even worse than 'anti.'

One of the main differences here is that the Baha'i, to their credit I suppose, put it out in a public forum. Other homophobic groups tend to keep it private, as they know what will come at them from folks like you and me and many others.

 

[CG Didymus]

Gee, there has to be a 'cure', don't you think?

Try to cure them. Kill them. Outlaw them. It's all been tried. Yet, they're still here, and ask us to "get used to it." Some people have.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Okay, keep doing what you're doing. I'm just saying it is what your religion teaches.

"Among the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is His declaration that religion must be the cause of love and fellowship, must be the source of unity in the hearts of men. If religion becomes a cause of enmity and hatred, it is evident that the abolition of religion is preferable to its promulgation . . .”

“If ye be aware of a certain truth, if ye possess a jewel, of which others are deprived, share it with them in a language of utmost kindliness and good-will. If it be accepted, if it fulfil its purpose, your object is attained. If any one should refuse it, leave him unto himself, and beseech God to guide him. Beware lest ye deal unkindly with him. A kindly tongue is the lodestone of the hearts of men. It is the bread of the spirit, it clotheth the words with meaning . . .”

“The teaching work “should be tempered with wisdom--not that wisdom which requireth one to be silent and forgetful of such an obligation, but rather that which requireth one to display divine tolerance, love, kindness, patience, a goodly character, and holy deeds . . . ” ​

Yes, i will keep being a baha'i no matter what you or others say, think or wish me to believe.

 

[Vinayaka]

Try to cure them. Kill them. Outlaw them. It's all been tried. Yet, they're still here, and ask us to "get used to it." Some people have.

My first encounter with the concept was in high school, where we ( I was as immature as the rest of the class). pretended to be gay for laughs. It was cruel, really, but I have forgiven my 16 yr. old self. By the age of 18, I was probably far more tolerant. Back then in rural Alberta where I grew up hardly anyone even knew about it. Sadly, it still can warrant capital punishment in some places.

 

[dybmh]

I would go with whatever the UHJ legislates but it is important to note that the UHJ cannot remove the words "unnatural" and "affliction" from the Baha'i Writings.

The Universal House of Justice is also given the responsibility of adapting the Bahá'í Faith as society progresses, and is thus given the power to legislate on matters not explicitly covered in the Bahá'í sacred texts. While the Universal House of Justice is authorized to change or repeal its own legislation as conditions change, it cannot dissolve or change any of the laws which are explicitly written in the sacred texts.[1][9]

Universal House of Justice - Wikipedia

OK thank you. I could be wrong, but, I thought that the words unnatural and affliction came from either Adbul'Baha or Shoghi Effendi. Are Abdul'Baha's and Shoghi Effendi's writing considered "sacred texts"?

 

[CG Didymus]

Oh but you're so anti-Baha'i. Little wonder you would say that.

I am not "anti-Baha'is". I love the people. I just think some of their beliefs are wrong. Which means I think they are wrong in believing as they do. Which means I don't like some of the things they believe. And that is something I don't like about them. But that is not being "anti-Baha'i". I think I have made myself abundantly clear, even though I don't think what they believe it true, I love them and respect them, but I believe they are wrong.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes, i will keep being a baha'i no matter what you or others say, think or wish me to believe.

Okay. I accept that. Do you accept that I view homosexuals differently than you? And do you accept that just as you want to tell other about the good life, so do some other people, but they have a different take on it.
The end difference is that we understand God differently, if there is a God. And yet we both want good for other humans and allow them their own path.