Homosexuality and religious.

[Spirit of Light]

Okay. I accept that. Do you accept that I view homosexuals differently than you? And do you accept that just as you want to tell other about the good life, so do some other people, but they have a different take on it.
The end difference is that we understand God differently, if there is a God. And yet we both want good for other humans and allow them their own path.

Yes i accept that your view are different than mine, why would i not? I dont decide what you can or can not have opinions about.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I am not "anti-Baha'is". I love the people. I just think some of their beliefs are wrong. Which means I think they are wrong in believing as they do. Which means I don't like some of the things they believe. And that is something I don't like about them. But that is not being "anti-Baha'i". I think I have made myself abundantly clear, even though I don't think what they believe it true, I love them and respect them, but I believe they are wrong.

Well, I don't think other beliefs are wrong. I just think they are different as far as I can tell with science. As for like that is in me and not in them as far as I can tell with science.

 

[Vinayaka]

I am not "anti-Baha'is". I love the people. I just think some of their beliefs are wrong. Which means I think they are wrong in believing as they do. Which means I don't like some of the things they believe. And that is something I don't like about them. But that is not being "anti-Baha'i". I think I have made myself abundantly clear, even though I don't think what they believe it true, I love them and respect them, but I believe they are wrong.

We concur. I'm the same. My comment was /s. There is a whole lot of stuff I admire about the Baha'i faith, such as ahimsa, mutual support, and more.

 

[CG Didymus]

One way I deal with it is that God is in practice a placeholder for some peoples hopes and morality. But if there is a God, God doesn't make sense intellectually, but I still use God as that placeholder for hope, but not for morality. For morality I am a human in an apparently natural world.

In other words I use God a coping tool, because it works for me, but for the everyday world I am a naturalist when it comes to being in the world.

Again, it is the absolute believing in any religion that is the problem. But I can see why it happens. Those religions present themselves as being the only truth. And to not believe is considered evil. Extreme beliefs in Christian or Islam or some of the others leads people to do extreme things for their religion. Will Baha'is be the same? If they get enough people and gain power, what if they do start enforcing some of their laws? Will there be peace and unity or will there be Baha'i enforcers making sure everybody obeys the laws?

 

[Vinayaka]

Again, it is the absolute believing in any religion that is the problem. But I can see why it happens. Those religions present themselves as being the only truth. And to not believe is considered evil. Extreme beliefs in Christian or Islam or some of the others leads people to do extreme things for their religion. Will Baha'is be the same? If they get enough people and gain power, what if they do start enforcing some of their laws? Will there be peace and unity or will there be Baha'i enforcers making sure everybody obeys the laws?

I can't see it ever happening, but it's still a good question to ponder. As with politicians who make promises, we never really know until a couple of years after the election.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Someone could claim he wasn't in his divine nature when he said it? He was in his human nature at that moment?

I think Baha'i claim that about other prophets, specifically Moses.

The Bible shows how they are born with that Holy Spirit, that they are not men like us, though they share our humanity, they are born of the Holy Spirit.

Baha'u'llah has offered that even the Holy Spirit is created of the Most Great Spirit G_d.

As such the wisdom is shown by them and seen by them from birth.

You will note in scripture, that there is a time that God is revealed from them. Moses was the Burning Bush, Muhammad was the Angel Gabriel, the Bab was the severed head of Immam Ali and Baha'u'llah was the Maiden in 1852 and Jesus was the Dove at baptism with John the Baptist, who was also Eiljah!

Also interesting is that both the Bab and Baha'u'llah have identified as being the Ones who conversed with Moses. So I am still meditating on this, it would appear the Messengers might send themselves! They are all the first and the last, the beginning and the end, all the same Spirit given in a different age and a different name.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

OK thank you. I could be wrong, but, I thought that the words unnatural and affliction came from either Adbul'Baha or Shoghi Effendi. Are Abdul'Baha's and Shoghi Effendi's writing considered "sacred texts"?

The words unnatural and affliction came from Shoghi Effendi. His letters are not sacred texts but they are considered authoritative texts. Maybe @TransmutingSoul can explain what that means regarding how we are to view and follow them.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Will there be peace and unity or will there be Baha'i enforcers making sure everybody obeys the laws?

This is now just showing a deception CG. You are aware this has been explained many times, the laws are for those that accept Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Again, it is the absolute believing in any religion that is the problem. But I can see why it happens. Those religions present themselves as being the only truth. And to not believe is considered evil. Extreme beliefs in Christian or Islam or some of the others leads people to do extreme things for their religion. Will Baha'is be the same? If they get enough people and gain power, what if they do start enforcing some of their laws? Will there be peace and unity or will there be Baha'i enforcers making sure everybody obeys the laws?

Yeah, I get the problem, but that is not unique to religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

You remember your history, and indeed that's what first drew me to the discussion. It evolved from there. (I'm guessing 4 years back now ... we also used to have Old Badger who would post occasionally, as he was married to a Baha'i. I wonder if he's still around at all. You and I could both point to far more critical critiques of the Baha'i faith, but I restrain myself to the topic at hand, which is homophobia.

Yes, it's interesting that disagreeing morphs into 'anti', but hey I've had it morph into 'hate' which is even worse than 'anti.'

One of the main differences here is that the Baha'i, to their credit I suppose, put it out in a public forum. Other homophobic groups tend to keep it private, as they know what will come at them from folks like you and me and many others.

For me, I'd prefer the Baha'is were right rather than Evangelical Christianity. But I just don't see how the Baha'i Faith truly fulfilled the Bible and NT prophecies... Then add in Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam and the others?

I can see why some religion say and get their people to believe the message came from an inerrant God. But I can also see that maybe they just said that. And it was them that made up the religion and the beliefs. Like who's going to be able to prove if God is real? They still can't.

But spiritual and religious beliefs, like the Baha's say, should change with the times. The Baha'i Faith is almost there. It allows for changeable laws. Unless those laws came from the infallible one, Baha'u'llah... and were infallibly interpreted by Shoghi Effendi. That's the loophole. Did Shoghi get it right? He's not the prophet, yet his interpretation is considered infallible.

We could all just ignore the Baha'i. But can we when they say that they are the truth from God for today? If they are the truth, and they do become the dominant religion, what are we in for? And what are gays in for? I think the easiest option would be to declare belief and then go back into the closet. But is that the best option?

 

[dybmh]

What homosexuals do is their business to me, the baha'i rules are for me to follow, not for non baha'is so all i do is to answer for my personal understanding of the teaching, and it says, for me as a baha'i if i was Gay i would have to choose between God or lust.
Personally i would choose God every time.

If a Gay couple is together in love not lust, would that be OK? Serious question.

 

[Spirit of Light]

For me, I'd prefer the Baha'is were right rather than Evangelical Christianity. But I just don't see how the Baha'i Faith truly fulfilled the Bible and NT prophecies... Then add in Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam and the others?

I can see why some religion say and get their people to believe the message came from an inerrant God. But I can also see that maybe they just said that. And it was them that made up the religion and the beliefs. Like who's going to be able to prove if God is real? They still can't.

But spiritual and religious beliefs, like the Baha's say, should change with the times. The Baha'i Faith is almost there. It allows for changeable laws. Unless those laws came from the infallible one, Baha'u'llah... and were infallibly interpreted by Shoghi Effendi. That's the loophole. Did Shoghi get it right? He's not the prophet, yet his interpretation is considered infallible.

We could all just ignore the Baha'i. But can we when they say that they are the truth from God for today? If they are the truth, and they do become the dominant religion, what are we in for? And what are gays in for? I think the easiest option would be to declare belief and then go back into the closet. But is that the best option?

If a Gay couple is together in love not lust, would that be OK? Serious question.

That is up to them to tell you, not for me to say.

 

[dybmh]

That is up to them to tell you, not for me to say.

That's very kind of you. Maybe if I asked it this way:

You said: Paraphrasing "If I were gay it would be a choice between God and lust". My question is: how do you know it would be lust? Couldn't it be love? A choice between God and love?

 

[CG Didymus]

This is now just showing a deception CG. You are aware this has been explained many times, the laws are foe those that accept Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

I don't think so. If the religion of God, supposedly the Baha'i Faith, and the laws of God, are not meant for the whole of the world, then what good are they? Show me where the most great peace isn't talking about the Baha'i Faith being the governing body for the world? To fulfill prophecies, the Baha'i Faith has to have the government on the "shoulders" of Baha'u'llah. Show me the deception. Is the Baha'i Faith destined to be the religion that unites and governs the world? Here's from an ariticle on the lesser and greater peace...

Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.
​

It may be wrong, but I was told by Baha'is that after a great tribulation the people of the world would turn to the Baha'i Faith. The Faith would already have everything in place to take over the governing of the world. Is this correct or not? And what writings do you have to support your view?

 

[CG Didymus]

That's very kind of you. Maybe if I asked it this way:

You said: Paraphrasing "If I were gay it would be a choice between God and lust". My question is: how do you know it would be lust? Couldn't it be love? A choice between God and love?

That was the choice of the gay ex-Baha'i that was linked earlier. He was born into a Baha'i family, but then realized he was different. He was attracted to men. Things were fine until he met the love of his life, and in spite of the Baha'i laws, he married him. He did choose love over the Baha'i Faith, since the Baha'i Faith didn't recognize his marriage.

 

[Spirit of Light]

That's very kind of you. Maybe if I asked it this way:

You said: Paraphrasing "If I were gay it would be a choice between God and lust". My question is: how do you know it would be lust? Couldn't it be love? A choice between God and love?

That qoute was about the sexual aspect of being gay and being a faith believer in God. And then it has to do with lust.

God is Love. So what you ask is actually to choose between God and God.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, i will keep being a baha'i no matter what you or others say, think or wish me to believe.

What? That's teachings from the Baha'i Faith. Did you read it correctly?

 

[Spirit of Light]

What? That's teachings from the Baha'i Faith. Did you read it correctly?

Yes I did read it
Why?

 

[CG Didymus]

My first encounter with the concept was in high school, where we ( I was as immature as the rest of the class). pretended to be gay for laughs. It was cruel, really, but I have forgiven my 16 yr. old self. By the age of 18, I was probably far more tolerant. Back then in rural Alberta where I grew up hardly anyone even knew about it. Sadly, it still can warrant capital punishment in some places.

Yeah, it was automatic in High School to beat them up and call them names. Then the protests for equality happened. And I had to admit to myself, the only reason I was against gays was that society and religion said it was wrong and evil. Some people are still finding it hard to come out because of how society reacts to them... Movie stars and musicians and now some athletes.

 

[dybmh]

That qoute was about the sexual aspect of being gay and being a faith believer in God. And then it has to do with lust.

OK. I disagree. Respectfully. But we don't need to argue. Simply put, I don't assume that the "sexual aspect of being gay" always has to do with lust. It could be about love. And when it is, it should be acceptable per your standards. I think it's an important consideration.