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Homosexuality and religious.

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
"Current" fad? I thought there's been guys doing it with guys and woman doing it with women way back in the olden days of... like from the beginning. What's current is gays demanding to be treated as equals, as normal, as being okay and not as if they are some horrible thing that must be condemned and even exterminated.

I mean it’s approval. Adolescence admits extremes. Before homosexuality was outlawed now they’ve gone to the other extreme and are interfering with God’s laws and nature.

I believe that what the world will eventually settle on is that not to discriminate or harm a person with that orientation but that it’s not normal or natural and overturn gay marriage. I believe as humanity matures it will avoid both extremes and see homosexuality as an affliction which needs to be overcome. But we are still not there yet rebelling against God and His Messengers thinking we know better than God and if God does not bow down to our whims and desires then we say He doesn’t exist. Typical adolescent behaviour. Can’t get what one wants then rebel against mum and dad so to speak and kick up a fuss and tantrum.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
You said you didn't know how she got pregnant. It was God through the Holy Spirit.

And again, do you believe the birth stories in the gospels or the version in the Quran? And is there a Baha'i version? Oh, but I still think it's strange that it's just based on one verse in Isaiah. But who cares about context.

By don’t know I mean I don’t know how God performed the virgin birth. Yes i fully believe it was through the Holy Spirit. I just meant it’s all a mystery which it is.

Both the Bible and Quran agree on the virgin birth. In the Book of Certitude Baha’u’llah mentions that she wished she never had been born.

You can get some idea about what the Quran says on this link

An Islamic account of the miraculous birth of Jesus- OnePath Network
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
OK. When I read the list, one virtue stood out to me. "Admonish the rich." Why admonish the rich? What did they do? Did they all collectively do something wrong to deserve a universal admonition? Or did a few do something and that ruined the reputation of the rich? As it's written, this is unexplained and unjustified.

When one superficially considers a verse offered, then it is a superficial understanding gained.

There is a vast amount of advice behind what was offered in that quote.

Regards Tony
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Yes I fully agree with you CG. That is why I have always said I never ever deserved such a gift because I am only too aware of my shortcomings. That nothing I can say can ever do any justice to such a wonderful Cause.

No doubts.
Classic doublespeak. Aware of your shortcomings? Are you at all aware of the shortcoming of referring to homosexuality as a fad, when it was seen in ancient times, and has been around far far longer than your faith has. Not exactly being too aware, in my view.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
The rich is a very broad term and does not just refer to a person who is wealthy but the actual use of riches. I think that the $trillions wasted by nations on weapons and arms instead of improving the quality of life for all people is the kind of thing He is speaking about. Because He wants all humanity to live in comfort.

Baha’u’llah considers the rich have some duties in helping alleviate poverty and writes this. So He’s emphasising that the rich should be compassionate and not only care about the,selves.

‘O ye rich ones on earth! The poor in your midst are My trust, guard ye My trust, and be not intent only on your own ease.’
You think it takes a Baha'u'llah quote for people to think that some rich people ought to be more generous? Again, this is common sense, and 99% of humanity has that figured out.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Not a valid comparison, as tons of straight people do that sort of stuff, and tons of gay people don't. This is stereotyping gays.
You know that isnot what I think or believe. I just realized i am not a straight person myself do you think I would mock gay people?
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
You know that isnot what I think or believe. I just realized i am not a straight person myself do you think I would mock gay people?
I never claimed you were mocking gay people. I claimed that wearing nail polish and make-up is a false stereotype of gay people. It wasn't at all about you, but about a concept that some people still hold. Not that long ago, so was the wearing of earrings, and in particular one earring. The fact is many gay people dress and conform to a 'normal' style of dressing, and the same people who stereotype gay dress are very surprised to learn that the person is gay. The movie star Rock Hudson exemplifies this, as he played mostly heroic handsome man roles.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That’s where people get misled because upon which believers does one determine the truth? If one looks at the good believers then the religion is good but if at the not so good ones then the religion is wrong?

One must look at the entire spectrum of believers and unbelievers to understand how faith affects people, and to evaluate which systems get the best results.

The standard being set is what should be looked at. For example, Islam is a religion of peace. The Quran teaches to return love for hate. Yet if one base one’s views of Islam upon extremists one will have a distorted view of it. It’s true the followers should be setting the example but if they do not then it is not the fault of the religion but disobedience to it which is the problem.

I understand that first sentence to mean one evaluates a religion by looking at its words. And the last sentence is typical of Abrahamic theism to blame the individual rather than failings of the religion to reach them. To me, the frequency of the failures is as relevant as the frequency of successes.

The part of religions which support and confirm each other are the spiritual teachings which teach things like the virtues and having an upright character. It is only the social teachings traditions and customs which are different according to the age in which the religion appeared.

The parts of religions that support one another are the parts that mean nothing specific - the airy stuff called spiritual, which boils down to there is a god who says to be good and be nice. That's not religion except for throwing in the god part, which can be omitted without loss of meaning.

The more you and others attack such beautiful teachings the more lucky I realise I am and the more ignorant I realise critical thinkers are to be attacking the author of such beautiful Writings and Teachings. If critical thinking can’t see the truth in these Words then it is completely and utterly useless and worthless.

Critical thinking is what saved me from religion (and being an anti-vaxxer and falling for election hoax lies). Critical thinking is what led me to humanism. You consider yourself fortunate. I consider that skill - critical thinking - the most valuable cognitive skill one can acquire. It's what lets me see the words you cite in a way you do not, and why I do not value them.

Atheism I personally believe to be wilful emotional, mental and spiritual blindness bases upon a form of egoism which worships the self. Which insists that the self is all there is and is always right. Baha’is are wary of the self and only fully trust God.

Here's a classic Abrahamic sentiment regarding skepticism. It interprets independence from the shackles of Abrahamic religions and a moral failing akin to narcissism. It's a pretty simplistic and obviously self-serving sentiment. I've asked you before what you think your religion has to offer a humanist, and got no reply. Humanism has something to offer you. There is no bigotry there. Nobody is considered damaged or defective because a man said a god told him so.

Also, humanism offers reason and critical thought in place of faith, and the chance to live an authentic life as an autonomous moral agent in place of ancient received moral codes - you know, the part Abrahamists refer to as rebellion or arrogance or wanting supplant God with oneself - all code for did not submit. Your use of the word willful above is correct and illuminating. The exercise of free will is sin. Submission is virtue.

Is it surprising that belief systems that require obedience praise it as a virtue and independence of thought as a vice (sin)? No more so than that systems that can only be believed by faith declare faith a virtue and critical thought the devil trying to distract one. Humanism is the rejection of that, and it has improved the human condition with its fruits, which include science and the modern liberal democratic state with guaranteed individual rights. In the Middle Ages, people were subjects with few rights. Humanism converted them into autonomous citizens, and one can still hear kings and priests howling from the past, neither having much use for independent thinking people.

But other than that, like you say, critical thinking has been "utterly useless and worthless."
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
That is exactly why I will not further explain and just so you are aware, we been advised not to reply to those that reject the Spiritual side of their own selves.

It is to our shame we are not able to follow that advice, not yours.

Regards Tony
So by not accepting Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i teachings, we're rejecting the spiritual side of ourselves. Good to know.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
This number has been debunked. Here's a blog post detailing it. In summary:

it is quite misleading to say that there are 40,000 denominations worldwide, if by that we mean that there are 40,000 organised bodies of Christians who are divided against each other.

The actual number of denominations is a far smaller number (they count 300 major ecclesiastical traditions worldwide, grouped into 6 ecclesiastico-cultural mega-blocs)
40,000 Denominations Worldwide – Christianity Divided? - The Ben Smart Blog
There is no doubt that Christianity has to accomodate bleeding heart liberals who accept gays and minorities, through moderate interpretations, through conservatives, all the way to extremists like the KKK, a Christian organization. This weekend I was in southern missouri and I saw a church that is the Second Baptist Church. Second? It's usually First Baptist, or First Methodist, or First Whatever, but Second? That Christianity isn't a unified religion at all is problem for them claiming "truth" in any sense. The justification is that at the core of it all all Christians are saved. Yet even this is debated, as some Christians claim salvation comes through works, while others claim it is a guarantee once they accepted Jesus. Oddly this latter group usually say they have no moral obligation to others once they are saved. Wow, talk about missing everything Jesus taught. Catholicism was clever to make their system a pyramid hieracrchy as that eliminated any wandering sheep.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
So by not accepting Baha'u'llah and the Baha'i teachings, we're rejecting the spiritual side of ourselves. Good to know.
Right, there's nothing like spiritual blackmail to realize the Bahai really believe in oneness. Seeing people completely absorbed in religious dogma is always a concern. It is interesting to watch the superficial kindness, yet over time we start to see the true darkness that lurks underneath. The fact that Bahai HAVE to accept bigotry as part of their ideology indicates a serious flaw in their being. That bigotry should be a deal breaker to any moral person.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Thanks for that because I know there are many sects in Christianity but how many I’m unsure. If you add in the sects such as Mormons, Jehovas Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists, Church of Christ, Lutheran, Russian Orthodox, Pentecostals. I still think it’s in the tens of thousands of sects because there’s just so many sects of Christianity that are not part of the mainstream. I can’t just go by one blog.
sure, I can understand that. but just common sense, 40,000 is a huge number. I looked on wikipedia: List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia. It's a big list but 40,000 seems very very high.

Here's the source that the blog used for it's conclusion that 40,000 was misleading: The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition). If you read it ( it's not long ) I think you'll find it a credible counter proposal.

I respectfully request that you research this further before propagating misinformation about Christianity.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
sure, I can understand that. but just common sense, 40,000 is a huge number. I looked on wikipedia: List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia. It's a big list but 40,000 seems very very high.

Here's the source that the blog used for it's conclusion that 40,000 was misleading: The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition). If you read it ( it's not long ) I think you'll find it a credible counter proposal.

I respectfully request that you research this further before propagating misinformation about Christianity.

Do you have any data on how they are organized as part of a greater whole if relevant?
Or even if they are fractions within some of the big ones?

The problem as I see it, is that we end play a variant of no true Scotsman for how we draw the lines. I get what you are getting at, I do.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
If you have a look at line 41 of this document it’s listed as about 45,000 under church organisations which are different sects of Christianity.

https://www.gordonconwell.edu/wp-co...3/2019/04/StatusofGlobalChristianity20191.pdf
yes, the dispute is over the source of the definition of denomination used in the source: "
David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, and Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Encyclopedia, 2nd
ed. (Oxford University Press, 2001"

The way they are determining denomination is based on country regardless of whether or not it's a multi-national denomination. Take a look at the second link I provided: The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition). Here the list of denominations is analyzed to see how many of the so-called denominations are actually different. That's how they ended up with a number closer to 300 rather than 40,000.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
yes, the dispute is over the source of the definition of denomination used in the source: "
David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, and Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Encyclopedia, 2nd
ed. (Oxford University Press, 2001"

The way they are determining denomination is based on country regardless of whether or not it's a multi-national denomination. Take a look at the second link I provided: The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition). Here the list of denominations is analyzed to see how many of the so-called denominations are actually different. That's how they ended up with a number closer to 300 rather than 40,000.

We are playing tents versus different versions under a common tent. Take a tent and then answer how many versions of difference under the tent can you have, before it is not a tent.
I can't answer that objectively, because it depends on how I define it. Yet there may be better ones than the big number, but you could also make the tents to big.
But I don't have a bone in that in the end. :)
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
When one superficially considers a verse offered, then it is a superficial understanding gained.

There is a vast amount of advice behind what was offered in that quote.

Regards Tony
The verse is 3 words long. It's impossible to read it in any other way other than superficially.

If you notice, I asked questions, not assumed. The verse is certainly not justified as it is written. If you'd like to provide some of the vast amount of evidence, that would be good.

Here's something to start to balance an anti-rich prejudice: America’s Top Givers 2022: The 25 Most Philanthropic Billionaires
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
We are playing tents versus different versions under a common tent. Take a tent and then answer how many versions of difference under the tent can you have, before it is not a tent.
I can't answer that objectively, because it depends on how I define it. Yet there may be better ones than the big number, but you could also make the tents to big.
But I don't have a bone in that in the end. :)
Sure, and it would take someone knowledgeable about tents ( and other portable shelters ) to inspect each one on a case by case basis. When that is done, it appears that there are much much less than 40,000 different divergent belief systems in Christianity. A lot of people trot out that number when trying to disparage Christianity. If it's not true, it should be corrected when it pops up.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I mean it’s approval. Adolescence admits extremes. Before homosexuality was outlawed now they’ve gone to the other extreme and are interfering with God’s laws and nature.

I believe that what the world will eventually settle on is that not to discriminate or harm a person with that orientation but that it’s not normal or natural and overturn gay marriage. I believe as humanity matures it will avoid both extremes and see homosexuality as an affliction which needs to be overcome. But we are still not there yet rebelling against God and His Messengers thinking we know better than God and if God does not bow down to our whims and desires then we say He doesn’t exist. Typical adolescent behaviour. Can’t get what one wants then rebel against mum and dad so to speak and kick up a fuss and tantrum.
Thankfully, society is, and has been going in the opposite direction from the one that you desire.
We've realized that being gay isn't an "affliction." It's not a "fad," given that it's been around as long as humans (and other animals) have existed on the planet. That it's just a natural and normal variation in human sexuality. And it's found elsewhere in the animal kingdom.
We've realized (well, some of us) that gay people should have the same right to marry someone they love as anyone else in the world does.
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Classic doublespeak. Aware of your shortcomings? Are you at all aware of the shortcoming of referring to homosexuality as a fad, when it was seen in ancient times, and has been around far far longer than your faith has. Not exactly being too aware, in my view.

Thats the teachings of my religion not a personal shortcoming.
 
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