Homosexuality and religious.

[mikkel_the_dane]

Thats the teachings of my religion not a personal shortcoming.

But your religion is personal and a shortcoming to the rest of us. Don't you get that?

 

[dybmh]

There is no doubt that Christianity has to accomodate bleeding heart liberals who accept gays and minorities, through moderate interpretations, through conservatives, all the way to extremists like the KKK, a Christian organization. This weekend I was in southern missouri and I saw a church that is the Second Baptist Church. Second? It's usually First Baptist, or First Methodist, or First Whatever, but Second? That Christianity isn't a unified religion at all is problem for them claiming "truth" in any sense. The justification is that at the core of it all all Christians are saved. Yet even this is debated, as some Christians claim salvation comes through works, while others claim it is a guarantee once they accepted Jesus. Oddly this latter group usually say they have no moral obligation to others once they are saved. Wow, talk about missing everything Jesus taught. Catholicism was clever to make their system a pyramid hieracrchy as that eliminated any wandering sheep.

I think you've brought several examples of deviation in Christian doctrine. But that doesn't come close to claiming there are 40,000 deviations.

 

[Vinayaka]

Right, there's nothing like spiritual blackmail to realize the Bahai really believe in oneness. Seeing people completely absorbed in religious dogma is always a concern. It is interesting to watch the superficial kindness, yet over time we start to see the true darkness that lurks underneath. The fact that Bahai HAVE to accept bigotry as part of their ideology indicates a serious flaw in their being. That bigotry should be a deal breaker to any moral person.

It is a deal breaker for the vast majority of people, thank goodness.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thats the teachings of my religion not a personal shortcoming.

Then it's a shortcoming of your religion, which means it's a shortcoming of the religion's adherents.

 

[Vinayaka]

But your religion is personal and a shortcoming to the rest of us. Don't you get that?

No he doesn't, or he'd explain it.

 

[loverofhumanity]

One must look at the entire spectrum of believers and unbelievers to understand how faith affects people, and to evaluate which systems get the best results.



I understand that first sentence to mean one evaluates a religion by looking at its words. And the last sentence is typical of Abrahamic theism to blame the individual rather than failings of the religion to reach them. To me, the frequency of the failures is as relevant as the frequency of successes.



The parts of religions that support one another are the parts that mean nothing specific - the airy stuff called spiritual, which boils down to there is a god who says to be good and be nice. That's not religion except for throwing in the god part, which can be omitted without loss of meaning.



Critical thinking is what saved me from religion (and being an anti-vaxxer and falling for election hoax lies). Critical thinking is what led me to humanism. You consider yourself fortunate. I consider that skill - critical thinking - the most valuable cognitive skill one can acquire. It's what lets me see the words you cite in a way you do not, and why I do not value them.



Here's a classic Abrahamic sentiment regarding skepticism. It interprets independence from the shackles of Abrahamic religions and a moral failing akin to narcissism. It's a pretty simplistic and obviously self-serving sentiment. I've asked you before what you think your religion has to offer a humanist, and got no reply. Humanism has something to offer you. There is no bigotry there. Nobody is considered damaged or defective because a man said a god told him so.

Also, humanism offers reason and critical thought in place of faith, and the chance to live an authentic life as an autonomous moral agent in place of ancient received moral codes - you know, the part Abrahamists refer to as rebellion or arrogance or wanting supplant God with oneself - all code for did not submit. Your use of the word willful above is correct and illuminating. The exercise of free will is sin. Submission is virtue.

Is it surprising that belief systems that require obedience praise it as a virtue and independence of thought as a vice (sin)? No more so than that systems that can only be believed by faith declare faith a virtue and critical thought the devil trying to distract one. Humanism is the rejection of that, and it has improved the human condition with its fruits, which include science and the modern liberal democratic state with guaranteed individual rights. In the Middle Ages, people were subjects with few rights. Humanism converted them into autonomous citizens, and one can still hear kings and priests howling from the past, neither having much use for independent thinking people.

But other than that, like you say, critical thinking has been "utterly useless and worthless."

As regards to humanism I believe that no man however acute his knowledge and perception may be, can ever hope to reach the heights of wisdom and understanding of the Divine Physician God. And that it is only through adherence to the laws of God for each age that humanity can progress and advance.

The True Educators of men have always been the Prophets and Messengers of God. Many so called humane laws originated from one Manifestation of God or Another, ideas copied from Them by men, and then rebranded by them in a non religious form claiming originality.

All and any humanistic teaching or doctrines which benefit humanity I firmly believe can be traced back to the teachings revealed by God to One or Another Manifestations except of course that there is no God.

The Baha’i teachings contain a lot more than just humanism but a blueprint for a world civilisation. Virtues like justice and compassion taught by humanism have their origin in countless teachings from the Manifestations which are just plagiarised and rebranded without a God. But without the power of God it cannot rejuvenate or rehabilitate the fortunes of mankind. I believe only God’s Elixir, His teachings can achieve that.

Definition of Humanism - American Humanist Association

 

[loverofhumanity]

Then it's a shortcoming of your religion, which means it's a shortcoming of the religion's adherents.

That’s your view and I accept that you see it differently.

 

[loverofhumanity]

sure, I can understand that. but just common sense, 40,000 is a huge number. I looked on wikipedia: List of Christian denominations - Wikipedia. It's a big list but 40,000 seems very very high.

Here's the source that the blog used for it's conclusion that 40,000 was misleading: The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition). If you read it ( it's not long ) I think you'll find it a credible counter proposal.

I respectfully request that you research this further before propagating misinformation about Christianity.

The point is not the number. My point is that there are major divisions between Christians over interpretation. The church splintered into many sects over it. That’s all. But I can leave the number out and replace it with the word ‘disunity’ instead.

 

[loverofhumanity]

yes, the dispute is over the source of the definition of denomination used in the source: "
David B. Barrett, George T. Kurian, and Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Encyclopedia, 2nd
ed. (Oxford University Press, 2001"

The way they are determining denomination is based on country regardless of whether or not it's a multi-national denomination. Take a look at the second link I provided: The Facts and Stats on 33000 Denominations: World Christian Encyclopedia (2001, 2nd edition). Here the list of denominations is analyzed to see how many of the so-called denominations are actually different. That's how they ended up with a number closer to 300 rather than 40,000.

Im not disputing a number just making the point that Christianity does not speak with one voice because of disunity.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Thankfully, society is, and has been going in the opposite direction from the one that you desire.
We've realized that being gay isn't an "affliction." It's not a "fad," given that it's been around as long as humans (and other animals) have existed on the planet. That it's just a natural and normal variation in human sexuality. And it's found elsewhere in the animal kingdom.
We've realized (well, some of us) that gay people should have the same right to marry someone they love as anyone else in the world does.

Thats ok. I accept that you believe differently. No problems. I think gay people are good people. They are always welcome in my home.

 

[loverofhumanity]

But your religion is personal and a shortcoming to the rest of us. Don't you get that?

If to you it is then that’s your belief and I accept that.

 

[Vinayaka]

That’s your view and I accept that you see it differently.

If you did accept that people see it differently, you wouldn't be on these forums promoting your faith. You might come to the forums for some other reason, but not to promote. Most folks here don't promote their own faith.

 

[Vinayaka]

Thats ok. I accept that you believe differently. No problems. I think gay people are good people. They are always welcome in my home.

Just as long as they're not married or stay overnight in the same bedroom?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thats ok. I accept that you believe differently. No problems. I think gay people are good people. They are always welcome in my home.

Happy to hear that.

 

[Vinayaka]

I mean it’s approval. Adolescence admits extremes. Before homosexuality was outlawed now they’ve gone to the other extreme and are interfering with God’s laws and nature.

I believe that what the world will eventually settle on is that not to discriminate or harm a person with that orientation but that it’s not normal or natural and overturn gay marriage. I believe as humanity matures it will avoid both extremes and see homosexuality as an affliction which needs to be overcome. But we are still not there yet rebelling against God and His Messengers thinking we know better than God and if God does not bow down to our whims and desires then we say He doesn’t exist. Typical adolescent behaviour. Can’t get what one wants then rebel against mum and dad so to speak and kick up a fuss and tantrum.

So now non-Bahais are acting like adolescents. It's really too bad we don't all grow up and get with the Baha'i program, isn't it? How very condescending and divisive.

 

[loverofhumanity]

If you did accept that people see it differently, you wouldn't be on these forums promoting your faith. You might come to the forums for some other reason, but not to promote. Most folks here don't promote their own faith.

RF MISSION STATEMENT

As a community of diverse cultural and religious backgrounds, our aim is to provide a civil environment, informative, respectful and welcoming where people of diverse beliefs can discuss, compare and debate religion while engaging in fellowship with one another.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Classic doublespeak. Aware of your shortcomings? Are you at all aware of the shortcoming of referring to homosexuality as a fad, when it was seen in ancient times, and has been around far far longer than your faith has. Not exactly being too aware, in my view.

It was a few words to explain the sexual revolution that has distorted the proper use of this aspect of life. Big topic, most people will not see that it is actually a passing trend away from our spiritual capacities. A lot of this came about as the sexual revolution resulted in the breakdown of the family unit and an educational system with way to relaxed morals.

It needs way more discussion and thoughts that this forum can produce.

These views are not a minority, many will not say anything and let it change as it will.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So now non-Bahais are acting like adolescents. It's really too bad we don't all grow up and get with the Baha'i program, isn't it? How very condescending and divisive.

I see we all are adolescents when it come to our spiritual calling, no one is exempt, very few are mature and that apples to all people of all faiths and no faith.

If we were mature, there would be no wars, no predudices of race, gender, nation or religion, no people suffering oppression or dire need, no filthy rich hoarding wealth.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Right, there's nothing like spiritual blackmail to realize the Bahai really believe in oneness. Seeing people completely absorbed in religious dogma is always a concern. It is interesting to watch the superficial kindness, yet over time we start to see the true darkness that lurks underneath. The fact that Bahai HAVE to accept bigotry as part of their ideology indicates a serious flaw in their being. That bigotry should be a deal breaker to any moral person.

And what if Baha’u’llah is right?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Glad you respect the local culture. Too bad our ancestors didn't have respect for indigenous peoples. I've google mapped Australia, and it looks like even longer more boring drives than here.

I have always wanted to go to Canada. We had a Canadian Baha'i Couple with their family come to Normanton in the 1990's, from the Canadian winter 20 below 0 to the Normanton summer of 40 deg 100% humidity.

It nearly killed them, yet they pit on the show they came to do, they were a talented family

This is the Father, Jack Lenz
Jack Lenz - Wikipedia

I watch quite a few things about Canada, it looks like a beautiful place and also vast distances to drive!

I suppose you have areas of severe icy winter, but do you have deserts and drier hotter country as well?

Regards Tony