Homosexuality and religious.

[Trailblazer]

Try reading the claim I was responding to, that was repeatedly and dishonestly trying to suggest homophobia must involve an irrational fear of gay people.

It might include an irrational fear of gay people, but not necessarily...
Note the word or in the definition.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The only bullying I see is coming from the nonreligious on this thread, trying to get the religious to see it "their way."
The religious are just responding to their posts.

Is God a fact or an opinion? If an opinion, then that homosexuality is wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact. And a Prophet speaking for God is expressing an opinion. Take a side.

 

[KWED]

Exactly. And given the blatant contradiction the believer doesn't seem able to reflect on this looks to those they are trying to convince.

Their prophet is seen as infallible, and that traps these believers, and renders them unable to reconcile the condemnation of gays, and the self's own morality that is superior this this attitude. Something is flawed in the theology, and as a consequence, the believer. What I find odd is why a believer thinkls they need to align themselves to a theology and/or religion at all. If they are capable of seeing a condemnation of gays as bad, then why are they part of that religion? What else is flawed in the theology if that huge issue is set in stone?

Indeed. I can smell the cognitive dissonance from here.

 

[KWED]

Right. And the only solution is to abandon this teaching of Bahai completely, and acknowledge it was a mistake, or abandon the religion all together. .

Ironically, there is a passage in Bahaullah's writings where he says along the lines of, any religion that causes division and intolerance is not a true religion, and its followers should leave.
Yikes!

 

[KWED]

That could apply to any group that claims to 'be from God', logically speaking.

Yes!
They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.

 

[Trailblazer]

Closed minded bigots are always 100% certain of course, that's the nature of bigotry, as it has no rational basis.

So, if you are closed-minded and 100% certain about your opinion on homosexuality that would make you a bigot.
If you are prejudiced against and antagonistic toward religious people who hold a different opinion from you that would also make you a bigot.

bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
whata is a bigot - Google Search

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Yes!
They can't all be right, but they can all be wrong.

Well, that can be case for all positive claims of metaphysics and that is not just religion. Sometimes the rational answer is that it is unknown. And that is not limited to religion. That can also apply to evidence as that also has limits for which the rational is - it is unknown.

 

[KWED]

The other solution is to accept the teaching and realize it was not a mistake because it came from God, and an infallible God cannot make any mistakes.

But how do you know it is from god?
That's right, because Bahaullah said it was from god.
And how do you know Bahaullah was right?
Because he is god's messenger.
And how do you know he is god's messenger?
Because Bahaullah said so.
And how do you know he is right?
Because....
...
etc.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So, if you are closed-minded and 100% certain about your opinion on homosexuality that would make you a bigot.
If you are prejudiced against and antagonistic toward religious people who hold a different opinion from you that would also make you a bigot.

bigot: a person who is obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
whata is a bigot - Google Search

Well, you do it indirectly, because it is not just an opinion, but a fact that homosexuality is wrong, right?
Show your colours. In the end it is an opinion or a fact.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you reject the argument that homosexuality is wrong because they cannot produce children.

No, that is not the only reason it is wrong. It is wrong because it goes against the Law of God, and the fact that homosexuals cannot produce children is only one reason why it goes against the Law of God.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, that is not the only reason it is wrong. It is wrong because it goes against the Law of God, and the fact that homosexuals cannot produce children is only one reason why it goes against the Law of God.

But that is not a fact. God is an opinion.

 

[KWED]

What makes a belief acceptable?

Depends.
On important stuff that affects any people it is a combination of evidence, rational argument, social consensus, the law, etc.

On trivial stuff that only affects the individual then personal opinion is fine.

What people accept or reject is a personal decision based on their personal opinion.

Yes, but that doesn't make the belief itself acceptable to wider society.

Just because you don't accept a belief that does not mean it is not acceptable...
It is not acceptable to you and other people who think like you, but it is acceptable to others.

What is your point? That just because slavery is regarded as unacceptable to the vast majority of the world, doesn't mean that it is unacceptable, and those people who still support it shouldn't be challenged on their belief?

You fundamental argument seems to be "Yeah, most people think slavery is bad, but that doesn't mean it is bad".
(of course, this is where you tell me you don't support slavery )

 

[Trailblazer]

So you accept that the Bahai teachings on homosexuality are homophobic.

No.

 

[Trailblazer]

But that is not a fact. God is an opinion.

God is a belief.

 

[KWED]

It is not obstinate or unreasonable attachment, it is faith, and faith can move mountains.

Just too funny.

No, it is not prejudiced. It is based upon God's Reason and Knowledge of human nature, which trumps your reason and knowledge.

prejudice: preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.
what is prejudice - Google Search

I'm glad I did, as usual because it gave me one more opportunity.

We seem to have reached the stage where even if we found a passage from Bahalluah that said "....

You know, I was trying to come up with a passage that was a degree more overtly homophobic than what is already in Bahai texts - and I couldn't think of anything!

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

God is a belief.

Then you can't claim what you claim, because you state God as a fact, when it comes to homosexuality.

 

[KWED]

The only bullying I see is coming from the nonreligious on this thread, trying to get the religious to see it "their way."
The religious are just responding to their posts.

Oh, so presenting reasoned arguments to support a position is "bullying" (and "hurting" and "attacking" - terms used by other Bahais to describe debating).
And yet, the viciously homophobic language in Bahai texts is just fine. Not a problem. Perfectly acceptable. No one could possibly get upset at that.

Time for me to go to the pub before I start losing my usual equanimity.
Let's hope I don't come back on here on my return....

 

[Trailblazer]

you don't recognize that what God says, is an opinion in effect and not a fact, then you will claim opinions and facts as they were the same.

As long as the atheists on this thread don't recognize that what they say is an opinion and not a fact, then they will claim that their opinions are facts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Is God a fact or an opinion? If an opinion, then that homosexuality is wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact. And a Prophet speaking for God is expressing an opinion. Take a side.

And an atheist speaking for himself is expressing an opinion.
The opinion held by atheists that homosexuality is not wrong is a personal opinion and not a fact.

 

[Sand Dancer]

No, that is not the only reason it is wrong. It is wrong because it goes against the Law of God, and the fact that homosexuals cannot produce children is only one reason why it goes against the Law of God.

We know that childless couples were treated badly in Bible times. We sure don't need to be doing it now. Sincerely, a wife of an infertile man. Fertility issues are increasing. Are we going to discriminate against them now too?