homosexuality disproves evolution

[ellenjanuary]

Means Budweiser and a break from Champions Online...

Means that mankind definitely needs a natural predator or better cable...

Means that it just ain't important. That self-righteous buffoons with no sabre-tooth on their tail had too much time to wonder about everyone else's temple rather than the maintenance and upkeep of their own.

Wanna hear something? I like skin-tight leather pants and stiletto heels; sexually. I like pain. There is no "function" without pain. I'd really like some girl to...

A. Choice. That I got my deviance from a childhood of abuse and neglect... but it's OK (as long as I don't talk about it) because I'm a guy... and I wanna get hurt by girls...

Has exactly what to do with "fruitful and multiply?" Tell you. In the back of my mind, a masterpiece; Turing on the park bench with the silver dagger. (Even though I've since learned he was at home with a poisoned apple) Could be in a museum someday, ellen's Turing ('cause I'm a museum-quality artist); but it could be the bitter seed. At a bar, with ignorance; someone being immature in their own sexuality, railing on homosexuals... 7, and I; poetry unscribed...

From my copulation with Alan Turing; a potential (monstrous) piece of art. by-line barfight - cause of death, neck o' 7 - or perhaps nothing more than these words.

Meaning nothing; but being fruitful, and multiplying.

 

[Autodidact]

Many insist this here: They immediately support there is no chance of a fundamental change through choice and self-development if someone wishes to change their orientation.

Please quote a single person here other than you who has said this. All here are trying to get this simple concept across to you: You can change your behavior. You can't change your preference.

They are promoting that evolution and a genetic disposition rule over everything concerning the department.

Really? Who here has said this?

No other choice is possible if happiness and following their true nature is concerned.

It's not that hard. Ask yourself: Can you change your nature? Can you become homosexual?

On this part, it is not about a moral right or wrong for which I am referring and not about the question of why someone would wish to change their orientation. The question is "if" they wanted to go the other direction through self-development and self-disciplines could they not become successful and happy?

No. This is not a route to success and happiness. It's a route to failure and misery. Thousands of poor souls have tried and lived to share their experience. Would you like to hear from them?

A few people have respectively responded to this question implying that genetics still conquer an individual's choices of the matter. Now, If that is in fact true- that the genetic disposition completely obsoletes and rules over personal changes. Then take a bi-sexual for instance. Is their fate to have two partners in order to be happy in life? Do they have to marry two people now since were talking about an overruling genetic disposition or orientation?

You don't know what a bisexual is. It doesn't mean you must have both. It means you may have either. Bisexuals are just as monogamous as heterosexuals and homosexuals.

On the same principle, if they then choose a life partner, as some are stating, then they are not going with their "true inherently born nature" and will never be happy. Their fate is to be miserable because the genetic disposition rules everything. It sounds like a contradiction to me unless I have missed something. I still don't see how someone's own choices can be trumped by the genetic factor concerning desired change, further development and happiness if someone wishes for it... IMO.

Yes, you missed something. Bisexuality is not a curse, it's a capacity. A capacity to form a bond with either sex.

 

[The Wizard]

Wizard, have you grasped the basic distinction between sexual orientation (inherent) and sexual acts (subject to choice)? It seems you haven't. Nobody has conceded your baseless claim that sexual orientation is a choice. At the same time, nobody is arguing that ACTING on our sexual impulses is involuntary.

Only when you are able to grasp this distinction will you be able to move on to the question that really matters: Why SHOULDN'T homosexuals act on their feelings, just as heterosexuals do? I can't think of a single rational (AKA non-religious) reason that doesn't involve attempting to avoid discrimination, harassment, persecution or possible murder by anti-gay bigots (all of whom, incidentally, would agree with your posts). With this in mind, is homosexuality the problem or is it bigotry?

So, how does this principle correlate with an individual that becomes homosexual later on in life? Or, if they change their desires to hetrosexual. Are they a true homosexual or not? Did they have no choice in the matter or not? Does it become a true Scottsman scenerio? If a bi-sexual gets married are they then contradicting their "inherent orientation" thereby having the fate of being miserable?

I don't see much evidence that an inherent orientation cannot be successfully changed if someone desires it and under the right circumstances? It's a matter of self-development is it not? People choose who they become attracted to all the time. I'm asking questions and you're calling me a bigot.... thanks.... :areyoucra

 

[The Wizard]

First, I think trying to change your orientation is fundamentally immoral, stupid, and wrong.

Aha! So, even attempting or desiring to change such an aspect about one's self you consider immoral. How would that be immoral if they are not harming anyone? Would you really tell someone they were immoral and wrong if they changed it?

 

[Autodidact]

So, how does this principle correlate with an individual that becomes homosexual later on in life?

This is unheard of among men. It is not rare among women, whose sexuality is more fluid and responsive than male sexuality.

Or, if they change their desires to hetrosexual. Are they a true homosexual or not?

It doesn't happen.

Did they have no choice in the matter or not?

No one chooses their desires.

Does it become a true Scottsman scenerio? If a bi-sexual gets married are they then contradicting their "inherent orientation" thereby having the fate of being miserable?

No, they're expressing the heterosexual aspect of their bisexual capacity.

I don't see much evidence that an inherent orientation cannot be successfully changed if someone desires it and under the right circumstances?

My guess is that you've never read the scientific literature on the subject. Also that you've never spoken to a person who tried.

It's a matter of self-development is it not?

No, it's a matter of dishonesty.

People choose who they become attracted to all the time. I'm asking questions and you're calling me a bigot.... thanks.... :areyoucra

Really? I've never heard of a case in my life.

 

[Autodidact]

First, I think trying to change your orientation is fundamentally immoral, stupid, and wrong.

Aha! So, even attempting or desiring to change such an aspect about one's self you consider immoral. How would that be immoral if they are not harming anyone? Would you really tell someone they were immoral and wrong if they changed it?

But they do. They harm themselves, and all the people they lie to along the way. Think of poor Ted Haggard's wife and 4 children.

Have you ever known a woman whose husband left her because he was gay? He shouldn't have married her in the first place. He should have had the courage and integrity to live as what he was, a gay man. These cases involve a lot of suffering.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

If sexuality is indeed a choice (which everyone with a brain and the ability to get past their own prejudices will tell you it is) it is still quite doable to make a person believe that they are of a different orientation.

The theory behind this is quite simple, it is just basic behaviorism

Behaviorism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But the problem with this is it doesn't fix the condition (and let's face it homosexuality is nothing that needs fixing) all it does is covers the homosexual thoughts and feelings under layers and layers and layers of conditioning.

Operant conditioning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Classical conditioning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some of the conditioning techniques they use can be quite horrible

Conversion therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Psychologist Douglas Haldeman writes that conversion therapy comprises efforts by mental health professionals and pastoral care providers to convert lesbians and gay men to heterosexuality by techniques including aversive treatments, such as "the application of electric shock to the hands and/or genitals," and "nausea-inducing drugs...administered simultaneously with the presentation of homoerotic stimuli," masturbatory reconditioning, visualization, social skills training, psychoanalytic therapy, and spiritual interventions, such as "prayer and group support and pressure

 

[The Neo Nerd]

and just to show how truly evil those of you who are anti-gay can be

Physiological impacts of homophobia | PsyPost

Young adults who are lesbian, gay or bisexual (LGB) are at far higher risk for severe mental health problems than their heterosexual peers. New research from Concordia University suggests that the stress of being rejected or victimized because of sexual orientation may disrupt hormonal responses in lesbians, gays and bisexuals.

Recently published as a doctoral thesis in clinical psychology, this investigation examined environmental risks and protective factors that counterbalanced them in LGB youth. “Compared to their heterosexual peers, suicide rates are up to 14 times higher among lesbian, gay and bisexual high school and college students,” says Michael Benibgui, who led this investigation as part of his PhD thesis at Concordia’s Department of Psychology and Centre for Research in Human Development.

“Depression and anxiety are widespread,” he continues. “To learn why this occurs, we studied the physiological impact of homophobic social environments on a group of healthy young LGB adults.”

So in summary those of you who are homophobic and anti-gay are damaging the psychological and physiological well being of a group of people who have no choice over the way they are.

To summarise the summary STOP BEING A BUNCH OF ********

 

[The Wizard]

I agree with alot of what Quoxitic is saying.

Taken from http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/genetics_of_homosexuality.html


If homosexual orientation were completely genetic, one would expect that it would not change over the course of one's life. For females, sexual preference does seem to change over time. A 5-year study of lesbians found that over a quarter of these women relinquished their lesbian/bisexual identities during this period: half reclaimed heterosexual identities and half gave up all identity labels.31


In a survey of young minority women (16-23 years of age), half of the participants changed their sexual identities more than once during the two-year survey period.32 In another study of subjects who were recruited from organizations that serve lesbian/gay/bisexual youths (ages 14 to 21 years) in New York City, the percentage that changed from a lesbian/gay/bisexual orientation to a heterosexual orientation was 5% over the period of just 12 months (the length of the survey).33


Other studies have confirmed that sexual orientation is not fixed in all individuals, but can change over time, especially in women.34 A recent example of an orientation change occurred with The Advocate's "Person of the Year" for 2005. Kerry Pacer was the youngest gay advocate, chosen for her initiation of a "gay-straight alliance" at White County High School in Cleveland, Georgia. However, four years later, she is raising her one year old daughter, along with the baby's father.35


Another former lesbian, British comedienne Jackie Clune, spent 12 years in lesbian relationships before marrying a man and producing 4 children.36 Obviously, for at least some individuals, being gay or straight is something they can choose.


An examination of family pedigrees revealed that gay men had more homosexual male relatives through maternal than through paternal lineages, suggesting a linkage to the X chromosome. Dean Hamer24 found such an association at region Xq28. If male sexual orientation was influenced by a gene on Xq28, then gay brothers should share more than 50% of their alleles at this region, whereas their heterosexual brothers should share less than 50% of their alleles.


In the absence of such an association, then both types of brothers should display 50% allele sharing. An analysis of 40 pairs of gay brothers and found that they shared 82% of their alleles in the Xq28 region, which was much greater than the 50% allele sharing that would be expected by chance.25 However, a follow-up study by the same research group, using 32 pairs of gay brothers and found only 67% allele sharing, which was much closer to the 50% expected by chance.26


Attempts by Rice et al. to repeat the Hamer study resulted in only 46% allele sharing, insignificantly different from chance, contradicting the Hamer results.27 At the same time, an unpublished study by Alan Sanders (University of Chicago) corroborated the Rice results.28 Ultimately, no gene or gene product from the Xq28 region was ever identified that affected sexual orientation.


When Jonathan Marks (an evolutionary biologist) asked Hamer what percentage of homosexuality he thought his results explained, his answer was that he thought it explained 5% of male homosexuality. Marks' response was, "There is no science other than behavioral genetics in which you can leave 97.5% of a phenomenon unexplained and get headlines."29


The Wizard: So, see… all of that stuff about genetic dispositions trumping personal choices and self-developmental of orientation seems unfounded. It is not the answer. The site references/sources are unrelated to the site anyway. Furthermore, no substantial evidence rules out environmental factors, parenting influences, childhood experiences and suggestion as a part of the cause for the orientation.

 

[The Wizard]

But they do. They harm themselves, and all the people they lie to along the way. Think of poor Ted Haggard's wife and 4 children.

Have you ever known a woman whose husband left her because he was gay? He shouldn't have married her in the first place. He should have had the courage and integrity to live as what he was, a gay man. These cases involve a lot of suffering.

How do they harm themselves by changing their preference? What would they be lying about when they were not truely certain in the first place or just changed their mind? If they are not harming someone then it is not an "immoral" act.

And, it would be false to tell someone they're immoral and a lier for just changing their orientation. That would only be to support your own sense of morality- to support your position- and shows no respect whatsoever on what someone chooses to do with their own life.

You are basically saying, "Obey the genetic orientation... there is no chance of change.","It is not your nature to want anything else and there is no choice in the matter unless you want to be miserable, immorally wrong and complete liar."

Now, I'm not sure that is going to fly in the year 2011... :areyoucra

 

[Autodidact]

How do they harm themselves by changing their preference?

They don't change their preference. They only cause themselves misery by trying.

What would they be lying about when they were not truely certain in the first place or just changed their mind?

Says who? They were truly certain, and they didn't change their mind.

If they are not harming someone then it is not an "immoral" act.

But they are. They harm themselves and the poor opposite sex people they try to relate to.

And, it would be false to tell someone they're immoral and a lier for just changing their orientation.

They don't change their orientation. They only lie to themselves and others.

That would only be to support your own sense of morality- to support your position- and shows no respect whatsoever on what someone chooses to do with their own life.

My sense of morality includes honesty.

You are basically saying, "Obey the genetic orientation... there is no chance of change.","It is not your nature to want anything else and there is no choice in the matter unless you want to be miserable, immorally wrong and complete liar."

Yup, that's what I'm saying.

 

[DarkSun]

Wizard, have you grasped the basic distinction between sexual orientation (inherent) and sexual acts (subject to choice)? It seems you haven't. Nobody has conceded your baseless claim that sexual orientation is a choice. At the same time, nobody is arguing that ACTING on our sexual impulses is involuntary.

Only when you are able to grasp this distinction will you be able to move on to the question that really matters: Why SHOULDN'T homosexuals act on their feelings, just as heterosexuals do? I can't think of a single rational (AKA non-religious) reason that doesn't involve attempting to avoid discrimination, harassment, persecution or possible murder by anti-gay bigots (all of whom, incidentally, would agree with your posts). With this in mind, is homosexuality the problem or is it bigotry?

I don't see why people purporting Nazi ideology on this site get banned so quickly, but homophobic religious people are allowed to stay. It's the same s*** just coming from different a**holes. I don't see why he's still here, his views are just as offensive as Jew-killing imo.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Well, the only thing that would not be truely unique or mine would be the flower of life part of it.

Flower of life...how apt.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Means Budweiser and a break from Champions Online...

Means that mankind definitely needs a natural predator or better cable...

Means that it just ain't important. That self-righteous buffoons with no sabre-tooth on their tail had too much time to wonder about everyone else's temple rather than the maintenance and upkeep of their own.

Wanna hear something? I like skin-tight leather pants and stiletto heels; sexually. I like pain. There is no "function" without pain. I'd really like some girl to...

A. Choice. That I got my deviance from a childhood of abuse and neglect... but it's OK (as long as I don't talk about it) because I'm a guy... and I wanna get hurt by girls...

Has exactly what to do with "fruitful and multiply?" Tell you. In the back of my mind, a masterpiece; Turing on the park bench with the silver dagger. (Even though I've since learned he was at home with a poisoned apple) Could be in a museum someday, ellen's Turing ('cause I'm a museum-quality artist); but it could be the bitter seed. At a bar, with ignorance; someone being immature in their own sexuality, railing on homosexuals... 7, and I; poetry unscribed...

From my copulation with Alan Turing; a potential (monstrous) piece of art. by-line barfight - cause of death, neck o' 7 - or perhaps nothing more than these words.

Meaning nothing; but being fruitful, and multiplying.

Interesting post...and brave, frubals awarded.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Wizard & Auto

Sexuality and gender identification is initially defined by the structure of the brain, which in turn is the product of genetic expression.

I am an XXY hermaphrodite I do indeed find males and females attractive and I do not identify as male or female I am intersex.

So everyone is born with a highly variable capacity for homosexuality and/or heterosexuality, as varied as genotypal expression is.
Reflected by the expressed brain and it's chemistry.

However choices can reinforce or degrade that capacity one way or the other.
But if that capacity starts off strongly for homosexuality than no amount of heterosexual choices/encounters (unless they were almost all exceptionally amazing and the gay encounters disastrous) would lead to a heterosexual lifestyle.

True Bi sexuals are your battle ground really...they can be swayed either way... hehe

 

[Alceste]

So, how does this principle correlate with an individual that becomes homosexual later on in life? Or, if they change their desires to hetrosexual. Are they a true homosexual or not? Did they have no choice in the matter or not? Does it become a true Scottsman scenerio? If a bi-sexual gets married are they then contradicting their "inherent orientation" thereby having the fate of being miserable?

I don't see much evidence that an inherent orientation cannot be successfully changed if someone desires it and under the right circumstances? It's a matter of self-development is it not? People choose who they become attracted to all the time. I'm asking questions and you're calling me a bigot.... thanks.... :areyoucra

Have you or have you not grasped the distinction between sexual orientation (inherent) and sexual acts (subject to choice)? You are dodging the question.

Nobody but you and a bunch of anti-gay bigots believe people can choose who they are sexually attracted to or change their sexual orientation. If you don't consider yourself a bigot or don't want others to perceive you that way you might want to consider the company you're keeping.

 

[Alceste]

I don't see why people purporting Nazi ideology on this site get banned so quickly, but homophobic religious people are allowed to stay. It's the same s*** just coming from different a**holes. I don't see why he's still here, his views are just as offensive as Jew-killing imo.

I agree. But as long as anti-gay bigotry is tolerated on RF, I might as well smack it down when I see it.

 

[Vendetta]

Man all this heated discussion you guys need a cool swim like this guy

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself

 

[Alceste]

Obviously, for at least some individuals, being gay or straight is something they can choose.

Incorrect interpretation of the statistics. Many people can "choose" to be in either a heterosexual or homosexual relationship. Those people are called bisexuals. They don't, however, choose who they are sexually attracted to. They can only choose an opposite sex partner - hopefully it will be one they are sexually attracted to, rather than just a desperate effort to escape the incessant prejudice, persecution and discrimination that issues from anti-gay bigots (like the people who maintain the websites where you apparently look for evidence to support your opinion).

The Wizard: So, see… all of that stuff about genetic dispositions trumping personal choices and self-developmental of orientation seems unfounded.

Nobody but you is banging on and on about genetics explaining homosexuality. It's your pet straw man. "Inherent" does not mean "genetic", and genetics are not the only possible explanation for basic facts about ourselves that we cannot change, like for example whether we are attracted to men, women or both.

It is not the answer. The site references/sources are unrelated to the site anyway. Furthermore, no substantial evidence rules out environmental factors, parenting influences, childhood experiences and suggestion as a part of the cause for the orientation.

The site is a truckload of complete BS. Why would you go to a religious website to look for empirical evidence? Religion is faith-based. AKA, not subject to empirical evidence. What on earth would make you think people who believe crazy things on faith alone can correctly interpret empirical evidence?

 

[Alceste]

Man all this heated discussion you guys need a cool swim like this guy

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself

Lol. Can't help it. Bigotry annoys the hell out of me.