homosexuality disproves evolution

[The Wizard]

If someone is naturally homosexual, and chooses to try to live as a heterosexual, it makes them a poor, miserable liar.

How do you know that? Have you met any of those people? I'm asking because I don't see how the choice/developement to change one's orientation and be happy would be impossible.

 

[Valjean]

The history of such attempts, though, if you check the psychological literature, is pretty dismal.

 

[Jacksnyte]

How do you know that? Have you met any of those people? I'm asking because I don't see how the choice/developement to change one's orientation and be happy would be impossible.

I have known several of those people, and they were incredibly miserable.

 

[Autodidact]

How do you know that? Have you met any of those people?

Two words. Ted Haggard.

I'm asking because I don't see how the choice/developement to change one's orientation and be happy would be impossible.

Why on earth would someone want to?

The hardest, and most important challenge in life, is to be true to yourself. Instead of living a fake life, lying to everyone, trying to be what you're not, you can develop your own capacity to love and bond with another person, a capacity that originates in your own nature.

Why would you choose to build a life on lies and trying to be what you're not?

Oh, and the scientific literature indicates that it's a miserable failure, doesn't work, and causes a lot of grief.

I only have so much time on the planet. Why waste any of it trying to become what I'm not? I have a good chance at becoming pretty good at what I am.

 

[Valjean]

Really. Have you just read the last 3 pages? It's been the only real point I have been trying to make amongst the mountain of disagreement. I believe you even argued against me. You must be blind to say that, seriously. So, now, how does this explain bi-sexuals? Is this considered a genetic thing too? Also, if one has homosexual influences and "chooses" to develope a hetrosexual orientation then what does that make them?

Bisexuality is not a seperate category, Wizard, just a broader focus.

Look, sexuality consists of Drive + Focus.

Drive is the intensity of attraction. Some people have little or no drive. Others have a drive so strong that it consumes their lives and becomes a pathological obsession.

Focus is the target of drive. It's what you find sexually enticing; what turns you on.
Focus can be very narrow, like tall, slim blonds with Swedish accents and large breasts between 18 and 20 years who ride bicycles and wear high heels and floppy hats. Or it can be really broad, like everything walking on two legs and without feathers.
Sometimes focus is unusual, like an attraction to feet, children or fur.

We're not different sexual species. It's all just sexuality -- with varying degrees of drive and bell curves of focus.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

If you're going to go that invasive you can also kill someone's survival instinct. I mean, at that point you're talking about literally reprogramming a person.

It's certainly well out of the realm of "voluntary choice".

But it is possible nonetheless...to programme human minds...even at our primitive level.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

no one is claiming that choice is not involved.

I claim human sexuality is a fluid dynamic thing and can be reinforced or retarded...by choices and environmental considerations.
However I also believe the structure of the brain itself (defined by DNA) is wholly responsible for the underlying sexual inclinations of an individual that may or may not find expression...the brain grows new pathways when it learns and sexuality one way or the other must be reinforced by repeated experience..depending on the series of choices made and what are permitted given the social sexual enviroment.

I think all people have the potential for homosexuality from just fantazising about it to actually marrying someone of the same gender...many levels.

 

[The Wizard]

Originally Posted by Gunfingers

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...oves-evolution-post2360812.html / post2360812
If you're going to go that invasive you can also kill someone's survival instinct. I mean, at that point you're talking about literally reprogramming a person.

It's certainly well out of the realm of "voluntary choice".
________________________________________________________________________

The Wizard: But see, there is also a reverse side to that. Telling someone that they have no choice to change/develop anything about their self and just swallow the genetic/naturally born idea as a no-choice situation could lead to just as much programming towards the confused would it not?

I still think a person should include choice in the equation and not regulate it to such a low factor involved. Many alcoholics hang onto the same theme just to avoid responsibility of personal choice, discipline and self-development. Many also change the entire circumstance.

Furthermore, where does someone "conclude" that they are a homosexual instead of just having mixed/confused feelings or something. Do they just conclude this on a whim or do they actually take serious time to analyze the entire situation and consider other factors (i.e. such as mixed emotions and impulses, influences, environments, media, etc?

 

[Gunfingers]

Being gay may be similar to alcoholism, in that has been shown to have a genetic component and is extremely difficult to ignore, but in another way being gay is very different. Specifically in that there's no reason to not to be gay.

I mean, sure, people have had some level of success with "suppressing" their homosexuality, but decades of attempts yielded poor results and destroyed a lot of lives. It's gotten to the point that we have to say...why? Given that there's nothing particularly bad about homosexuality why try to change it?

 

[Jacksnyte]

Originally Posted by Gunfingers

If you're going to go that invasive you can also kill someone's survival instinct. I mean, at that point you're talking about literally reprogramming a person.

It's certainly well out of the realm of "voluntary choice".
________________________________________________________________________

The Wizard: But see, there is also a reverse side to that. Telling someone that they have no choice to change/develop anything about their self and just swallow the genetic/naturally born idea as a no-choice situation could lead to just as much programming towards the confused would it not?

I still think a person should include choice in the equation and not regulate it to such a low factor involved. Many alcoholics hang onto the same theme just to avoid responsibility of personal choice, discipline and self-development. Many also change the entire circumstance.

Furthermore, where does someone "conclude" that they are a homosexual instead of just having mixed/confused feelings or something. Do they just conclude this on a whim or do they actually take serious time to analyze the entire situation and consider other factors (i.e. such as mixed emotions and impulses, influences, environments, media, etc?

I grew up with several people who were very obviously gay from as early as age 3 or 4. It was never a choice they made! A couple of them, due to extreme religious pressure from the church they grew up in, and from their families attempted to live as if they were straight for a while. One of them still does, and he is one of the most uptight, unhappy, neurotic of people!
You seem genuinely to want to understand, so, why is it so hard (not just for you, but for everybody) to accept that whether or not it's caused by genetics, environment, or whatever, it occurs, and it is almost never a choice! Why would anyone choose to be that way knowing that they will be hated, feared, rejected, discriminated against, insulted, beat up, and possibly killed for it? This near obsession some people have with proving that these folks just decided one day to be gay is ludicrous! It makes me wonder why the person who thinks this way feels so threatened by the idea that it might not be a choice!

 

[The Wizard]

People could very well develop a homesexual orientation when it was something else because all the suggestion out there (of course not all cases). Then after going down that road for a while they are hooked and believe they were born that way and have no choice in the situation. In retrospect it can be a gate way orientation- until it becomes the dominant orientation.

I have seen homosexual recruiters out there with very bad intentions, not caring about other factors and jumping to convince those people it is all genetic/natural and other options are not even possible. This is what people are concerned about because they have easily infuenced kids.

I am not against the orientation. It doesn't enter my code of morality if it is not causeing harm or deception to other people. I am concerned about people taking the element of volitional choice/change/self-development out of the minds that could be mis-guided or just confused about things while they are in a vulnerable, easily imprintable state in life concerning the area.

 

[Jacksnyte]

People could very well develop a homesexual orientation when it was something else because all the suggestion out there (of course not all cases). Then after going down that road for a while they are hooked and believe they were born that way and have no choice in the situation. In retrospect it can be a gate way orientation- until it becomes the dominant orientation.

I have seen homosexual recruiters out there with very bad intentions, not caring about other factors and jumping to convince those people it is all genetic/natural and other options are not even possible. This is what people are concerned about because they have easily infuenced kids.

I am not against the orientation. It doesn't enter my code of morality if it is not causeing harm or deception to other people. I am concerned about people taking the element of volitional choice/change/self-development out of the minds that could be mis-guided or just confused about things while they are in a vulnerable, easily imprintable state in life concerning the area.

Most of the gay folks I knew growing up were very much in a christian environment with no-one to "recruit" them at all. Just extremely disappointed christian fathers whose sons would never be football stars (it's all about football in Texas!). Keep in mind, these guys were obviously gay from age 3 or 4!

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Wizard.

What is a homosexual recruiter exactly and whom are these people?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Being gay may be similar to alcoholism

No it isnt similar at all.

One is a narcotic addiction which is entirely different to sexuality.

To say homosexual men are addicted to men is nonsense.

They have merely been born with the capacity to accept male sexual partners to varying degrees of preference (homosexual 'expression') from the bisexual/curious to the archtypal flaming homosexual, influenced to lesser or greater degrees of course by environmental parameters and those early choices relating to sexuality and sex made during the critical pre adult post child age when a person first explores their sexual identity.

 

[Autodidact]

The Wizard: But see, there is also a reverse side to that. Telling someone that they have no choice to change/develop anything about their self and just swallow the genetic/naturally born idea as a no-choice situation could lead to just as much programming towards the confused would it not?

You have a choice. You can accept who you are and live a life of integrity, fulfillment and love, or you can deny your true nature and live a life based on lies and hypocrisy. It's up to you.

I still think a person should include choice in the equation and not regulate it to such a low factor involved. Many alcoholics hang onto the same theme just to avoid responsibility of personal choice, discipline and self-development. Many also change the entire circumstance.

1. Alcoholism is harmful. Homosexuality isn't. 2. Drunk or sober, they're still alcoholics. Whether in a straight or gay relationship, a gay person is still gay.

Furthermore, where does someone "conclude" that they are a homosexual instead of just having mixed/confused feelings or something.

I'm not the least bit confused. I'm completely clear that my feelings are lesbian, not heterosexual.

Do they just conclude this on a whim or do they actually take serious time to analyze the entire situation and consider other factors (i.e. such as mixed emotions and impulses, influences, environments, media, etc?

Here's a thought. Why don't you ask us?

Just as feelings and preferences cannot be chosen, they also cannot be mistaken. When you taste chocolate and find it delicious, you're not confused, and don't need to consider other factors. You know it tastes good to you. Whether you continue to eat it is of course up to you.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Just as feelings and preferences cannot be chosen, they also cannot be mistaken. When you taste chocolate and find it delicious, you're not confused, and don't need to consider other factors. You know it tastes good to you. Whether you continue to eat it is of course up to you.

Oh behave....

I like Dark Chocolate myself

 

[Autodidact]

People could very well develop a homesexual orientation when it was something else because all the suggestion out there (of course not all cases).

Right. Because all of society is built around trying to persuade us to be gay. All of the role models and media figures are gay. All of advertising uses gay examples.

Then after going down that road for a while they are hooked and believe they were born that way and have no choice in the situation. In retrospect it can be a gate way orientation- until it becomes the dominant orientation.

Here's the thing, Wizard. You have no idea what you're talking about. It's as though you've never spoken to a gay person in your life.

I have seen homosexual recruiters out there with very bad intentions, not caring about other factors and jumping to convince those people it is all genetic/natural and other options are not even possible.

Homosexual recruiters?!? You have not. You are full of baloney.

This is what people are concerned about because they have easily infuenced kids.

You're just plain wrong. Do you feel like someone could recruit you to change your preference to gay?

I am not against the orientation. It doesn't enter my code of morality if it is not causeing harm or deception to other people. I am concerned about people taking the element of volitional choice/change/self-development out of the minds that could be mis-guided or just confused about things while they are in a vulnerable, easily imprintable state in life concerning the area.

For perhaps the hundredth time, the only person trying to take choice out of it is you. Every gay person in the world has complete choice as to whether to live a life true to their gay nature, or whether to try to build a life on a foundation of lies. But since, as you agree, there is nothing wrong with being gay, why would anyone choose to be a lousy, unfulfilled, screwed up heterosexual, when they could be a fabulous, loving, honest queer?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

But since, as you agree, there is nothing wrong with being gay, why would anyone choose to be a lousy, unfulfilled, screwed up heterosexual, when they could be a fabulous, loving, honest queer?

Ooer..




'*The lesbians are restless tonight Igor...*

*Yeth marftur...ith the thtorm marftur..*

 

[The Wizard]

Most of the gay folks I knew growing up were very much in a christian environment with no-one to "recruit" them at all. Just extremely disappointed christian fathers whose sons would never be football stars (it's all about football in Texas!). Keep in mind, these guys were obviously gay from age 3 or 4!

But, how does someone "conclude" beyond a shadow of doubt the orientation with such infants? Couldn't that be just a childhood curiousity or perhaps a confusion towards sexuality- I mean you're talking about infants here. If they are breast fed it wouldn't mean they have incestious motives... IMO.

 

[The Wizard]

You have a choice. You can accept who you are and live a life of integrity, fulfillment and love, or you can deny your true nature and live a life based on lies and hypocrisy. It's up to you.

Ya, but how on earth would acting the opposite of even what someone's own body was designed for be considered following their "true nature?" Perhaps it's a psychological/sexual true nature... IDK. But, that also depends on the person and whether that orientation was so dominant that they couldn't reverse it through choice and self-developement if they wished... IMO.