homosexuality disproves evolution

[Primordial Annihilator]

Wizard...I like your avatar.

Do you believe in infinity Wizard?

Its not relevant but you and auto have both made yourselves clear to the brink of repetition (yet I am actually right...and you both are too...its nature and nurture....oh yes.....like everything baby).

 

[Autodidact]

You have a choice. You can accept who you are and live a life of integrity, fulfillment and love, or you can deny your true nature and live a life based on lies and hypocrisy. It's up to you.

Ya, but how on earth would acting the opposite of even what someone's own body was designed for be considered following their "true nature?"

Designed? Well, your body wasn't designed to wear glasses, or fly in an airplane, or do nuclear physics, but they're all things you can choose to do. Why not?

Perhaps it's a psychological/sexual true nature... IDK. But, that also depends on the person and whether that orientation was so dominant that they couldn't reverse it through choice and self-developement if they wished... IMO.

Research has shown the people can't reverse their inborn sexual/affectional preference, and trying only leads to wasted years of misery, not to mention usually hurting other people in the process.

Why would you wish to, unless you were concerned about other people's prejudice or oppression?

Here's a big point you don't get. There's nothing wrong with being gay. Or left-handed. Or liking chocolate.

I suppose it's possible to make yourself hate chocolate, through some bizarre aversion therapy, but trying to does more harm than good.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Or left-handed.

Being left handed is sinister...

 

[waitasec]

So, homosexuals are just and animal following instincts with no self-awareness and sence of choice? That is what you're saying is it not? If it isn't then how could choice not be involved?

no. that's not what i'm saying. you're putting words in my mouth.
you refuse to accept that people are born with an innate sense of sexual preference...

yes humans are animals...
who says animals are not sentient beings...

Ya, but.. if you haven't noticed. Animals also tear each other to pieces and eat one another. So, if I follow that instinct then I should not be held accountable... I mean, I really had no choice... I'm just following some outdated instinct. Do you see where that analogy leads to...? Like I said, not a good comparison for self-aware humans.

human beings have a killer instinct, i don't get your point.

I thought you just said it wasn't a choice. A preference can be a choice and influenced by envirement. Please make up your mind.

sexual preference
According to the American Psychological Association, sexual orientation is enduring and also refers to a person's sense of "personal and social identity based on those attractions, behaviors expressing them, and membership in a community of others who share them." The current consensus among scholars is that sexual orientation is not a choice


No major mental health professional organization has sanctioned efforts to change sexual orientation and virtually all of them have adopted policy statements cautioning the profession and the public about treatments that purport to change sexual orientation. These include the American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American Counseling Association, National Association of Social Workers in the USA,[2][35] the Royal College of Psychiatrists,[36] and the Australian Psychological Society.[37] According to the American Psychological Association and the Royal College of Psychiatrists' Gay and Lesbian Mental Health Special Interest Group, there is no sound scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed.[36][38]
In 2009 the American Psychological Association Task Force on Appropriate Therapeutic Responses to Sexual Orientation conducted a systematic review of the peer-reviewed journal literature on sexual orientation change efforts (SOCE) and concluded:
Efforts to change sexual orientation are unlikely to be successful and involve some risk of harm, contrary to the claims of SOCE practitioners and advocates. Even though the research and clinical literature demonstrate that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality, regardless of sexual orientation identity, the task force concluded that the population that undergoes SOCE tends to have strongly conservative religious views that lead them to seek to change their sexual orientation. Thus, the appropriate application of affirmative therapeutic interventions for those who seek SOCE involves therapist acceptance, support, and understanding of clients and the facilitation of clients' active coping, social support, and identity exploration and development, without imposing a specific sexual orientation identity outcome.[39]

Sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wouldn't recommend telling that to people that have and always will change things about their self through choice and developement. Of course we have choice... do we not choose our own actions, naturally inspired or not?

what that we are sexual beings?

You're asking questions not in the third person. Not a good approach on a public forum that can ban you just for being over-sensitive about things. I disregard questions that make me a public example on such a subject.

looks like you are you dodging the question?

you can only answer that question for yourself.

See, you dodged the question. You cannot answere a question with a question. Show me evidence that people were not self-aware and choice was not a factor... If you cannot it only shows how flimsy the stance is to begin with... IMO.

being self aware and having a preference are 2 separate things you see.
i am aware of being attracted to the same sex
i am aware that i am using my right had to write

do i have a choice when i sneeze? do i have a choice when i get tired? do i have a choice when i get aroused? do i have a choice when i scratch my itch? do i have a choice to laugh? do i have a choice to cry? do i have a choice when i feel proud of my sons abilities?


is that enough evidence?
one would think you live in a cave...

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Being gay or straight should not have to be such an issue..I certainly don't let my sexuality define who I am.

 

[The Wizard]

Wizard...I like your avatar.

Do you believe in infinity Wizard?

Its not relevant but you and auto have both made yourselves clear to the brink of repetition (yet I am actually right...and you both are too...its nature and nurture....oh yes.....like everything baby).

Oh.. thanks.. I created it artistically and it's copyrighted from one of my books. Also for my avatar for code name Octonimus at Looperman.com (as a solo-artist musician). Anyway....

Well, I'm just asking questions I don't think that can hurt anything. Since I could not possibly understand everything about the area I am sure I could potentially irritate someone to oblivion... lol. I've always liked the concept of infinity myself. Oh, and is Gandolph the white wizard really gay? I noticed the pictures earlier in the thread.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Oh.. thanks.. I created it artistically

Indeed...

An interesting fractal based design...

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How do you know that? Have you met any of those people? I'm asking because I don't see how the choice/developement to change one's orientation and be happy would be impossible.

I use to be one of those people. For many years how I tried to tell myself that I am a man, and the more I told myself this and the more I tried live in a masculine way, the worse off I got. Ever go for four day without sleep and nothing more than a few crackers to eat because you are so stressed out about the inner turmoil of who you are on the inside and who you are on the outside are in total conflict? It sucks. Alot.
And there are those who would rather die, and some try and some succeed in suicide, because the life they have been living is not who they really are and they cannot live it another day.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Being gay or straight should not have to be such an issue..I certainly don't let my sexuality define who I am.

Agreed. My view is, even if the reprogramming therapy works, why is there even a need for it and why does it even exist? Wouldn't it be better to work towards a society in which homosexuality is accepted without question? And when two men are seen kissing, rather than being "gay" they are simple "just human."

 

[DarkSun]

Wizard, your problem is you're clinging to the idea that homosexuality is a choice, despite the fact that people have constantly tried to explain to you, it isn't. You ignoring them and repeating the same garbage counts as trolling in my book. So I have flagged you. Good day.

 

[The Wizard]

Here's a big point you don't get. There's nothing wrong with being gay. Or left-handed. Or liking chocolate.

You just said a post or so ago that you understood that I had no issue about this part you mention. You clearly do not read my posts with enough attention. So, it's subject to all types of mistaken interpretations. You keep changing your interpretations of me and then I have to repeat myself. See............ #193 (page 20) refferring to "a big point that I don't get."I think you have me confused with someone else... and after repeats of this I have lost energy to correct people anymore of this.

Do I have this correct? You support the theory that there is no chance of a true fundemental change through choice and self-developement if someone wishes to change the orientation. Evolution and genes rule over everything concerning it. No other choice is possible if happiness is concerned. Did I miss something?

 

[The Wizard]

Wizard, your problem is you're clinging to the idea that homosexuality is a choice, despite the fact that people have constantly tried to explain to you, it isn't. You ignoring them and repeating the same garbage counts as trolling in my book. So I have flagged you. Good day.

Your interpretation of me having that problem is false. As soon as people admited that choice had to also be involved in the equation I didn't really have anything left to debate. I stuck to the point. Then I started pondering the aspects of chosen self-development. That is why we are here- to learn and debate. There are no specific rules on HOW to do it and just because it doesn't fit your book definition doesn't mean I am guilty of anything and deserve a punishment.

I havent had the time to respond to everyone's lengthly posts in the first place. That is why this is called a message forum and not a chat room. You and I have not even conversed for the last 3-4-5 pages. And, you started flinging name calling, rude labels, getting over-sensitive and using cussword quotations towards me - which is even less appropriate than what I could possibly do. Reasonable people usually start ignoring such things.

It is appropriate for me to ignore your negativity (SEE # 117. page 12-for your own example of complete negativity, which far outways even myself). And, note, I ignored you instead of flagged you. Because that is not exactly the most civilized and appropriate method to deal with conversations of such high calibre. Many have now agreed that self-awareness and choice was also part of the equation and I am on that page moving forward. So, please, stop projecting your own negative side on me. I don't have the antidote for that anyway, unless you preffer the magic mirror... IMO

 

[The Wizard]

Indeed...

An interesting fractal based design...

Well, the only thing that would not be truely unique or mine would be the flower of life part of it.. I didn't invent that one...lol... thanks.

 

[Vendetta]

Wizard what is your position on homosexuality? I am curious.

 

[Alceste]

Wizard, have you grasped the basic distinction between sexual orientation (inherent) and sexual acts (subject to choice)? It seems you haven't. Nobody has conceded your baseless claim that sexual orientation is a choice. At the same time, nobody is arguing that ACTING on our sexual impulses is involuntary.

Only when you are able to grasp this distinction will you be able to move on to the question that really matters: Why SHOULDN'T homosexuals act on their feelings, just as heterosexuals do? I can't think of a single rational (AKA non-religious) reason that doesn't involve attempting to avoid discrimination, harassment, persecution or possible murder by anti-gay bigots (all of whom, incidentally, would agree with your posts). With this in mind, is homosexuality the problem or is it bigotry?

 

[Iasion]

Yup,
most of the recent argument is simply equivocation about the word "choice".

Yes -
people CAN choose their sexual ACTIONS.

No -
people CANNOT choose their sexual orientation.

Agreeing that people can choose their actions does NOT mean they can choose their sexuality.

Big difference.
Please don't say there is a choice without making it clear whether you are talking about choosing your actions, or your sexuality.


Iasion

 

[ellenjanuary]

What is your position on homosexuality?

hmmm... stand-in.

Ya know, when you die and go to heaven? You're gonna look back on these conversations; do the

 

[Vendetta]

What is your position on homosexuality?

hmmm... stand-in.

Ya know, when you die and go to heaven? You're gonna look back on these conversations; do the

What the hell does that mean?

 

[Autodidact]

You just said a post or so ago that you understood that I had no issue about this part you mention. You clearly do not read my posts with enough attention. So, it's subject to all types of mistaken interpretations. You keep changing your interpretations of me and then I have to repeat myself. See............ #193 (page 20) refferring to "a big point that I don't get."I think you have me confused with someone else... and after repeats of this I have lost energy to correct people anymore of this.

Do I have this correct? You support the theory that there is no chance of a true fundemental change through choice and self-developement if someone wishes to change the orientation. Evolution and genes rule over everything concerning it. No other choice is possible if happiness is concerned. Did I miss something?

First, I think trying to change your orientation is fundamentally immoral, stupid, and wrong.
Second, I know it's not possible.
Third, there is never any choice in what our preferences are. We just have them. It is difficult to impossible to change them. That includes homosexuality, as well as heterosexuality.
It appears this preference may be heritable, or seems to be largely inborn, but it doesn't matter where we get them; we just have them.
We can all choose whether to act on our preferences. Since there is every reason to act on the ability to love another person of the same sex, and no reason not to, there is no reason to make this choice.
Yes, if you want to be happy, you have to learn how to accept yourself as you are and be true to that. Trying to change your fundamental nature or worse, to hide or lie about it, is a recipe for misery and hurting other people.

 

[The Wizard]

Wizard what is your position on homosexuality? I am curious.

You would have to be more specific.

Many insist this here: They immediately support there is no chance of a fundamental change through choice and self-development if someone wishes to change their orientation. They are promoting that evolution and a genetic disposition rule over everything concerning the department. No other choice is possible if happiness and following their true nature is concerned.


On this part, it is not about a moral right or wrong for which I am referring and not about the question of why someone would wish to change their orientation. The question is "if" they wanted to go the other direction through self-development and self-disciplines could they not become successful and happy?


A few people have respectively responded to this question implying that genetics still conquer an individual's choices of the matter. Now, If that is in fact true- that the genetic disposition completely obsoletes and rules over personal changes. Then take a bi-sexual for instance. Is their fate to have two partners in order to be happy in life? Do they have to marry two people now since were talking about an overruling genetic disposition or orientation?


On the same principle, if they then choose a life partner, as some are stating, then they are not going with their "true inherently born nature" and will never be happy. Their fate is to be miserable because the genetic disposition rules everything. It sounds like a contradiction to me unless I have missed something. I still don't see how someone's own choices can be trumped by the genetic factor concerning desired change, further development and happiness if someone wishes for it... IMO.