homosexuality disproves evolution

[The Wizard]

Some people are born with blond hair. They did not choose it, and dying it changes the color it seems to be, but the genetic code is still producing pigments for blond hair.
It is the same for homosexuality. It has genetic origins, and any attempts to change it only changes it on the outside.
However it is my believe that very few people are truly heterosexual or homosexual.

So, once again, how does the gene factor trump self-awareness and choice? I would think people would just face up and be proud of their choices. Instead of paint theirself as a genetic victom.... IMO.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wouldn't recommend telling that to people that have and always will change things about their self through choice and developement. Of course we have choice... do we not choose our own actions, naturally inspired or not?

Did you choose what body types you are attracted for? Did you choose what types of food you like? What kind of music you like? What about your favorite color? Do you choose to get hungry? Thirsty? Do you choose to need air?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So, once again, how does the gene factor trump self-awareness and choice? I would think people would just face up and be proud of their choices. Instead of paint theirself as a genetic victom.... IMO.

There is no choice though. Studies are showing that homosexuality is based in genetics. It is also known that much of our personality, intelligence, characteristics, and many other things are all based in the brain.
“No longer Gage”: an iron bar through the head
The ultimate reality is, we have fewer choices than what most people like to believe.

 

[The Wizard]

There is no choice though. Studies are showing that homosexuality is based in genetics. It is also known that much of our personality, intelligence, characteristics, and many other things are all based in the brain.
“No longer Gage”: an iron bar through the head
The ultimate reality is, we have fewer choices than what most people like to believe.

How can a self-aware, "conscious" human being not involve choices and decisions in the matter? When they first had the influence they would be aware of it and that would therefore involve a choice on their part on what to do about it.

Genetic or not, they would be aware of it and a choice would be involved. Right? I mean, if every person that had an homosexual urge followed it, as in not having a choice in the matter, the statistics would be much higher I would think... IMO.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How can a self-aware, "conscious" human being not involve choices and decisions in the matter? When they first had the influence they would be aware of it and that would therefore involve a choice on their part on what to do about it.

Genetic or not, they would be aware of it and a choice would be involved. Right? I mean, if every person that had an homosexual urge followed it, as in not having a choice in the matter, the statistics would be much higher I would think... IMO.

To educate you on the article, it is about a man named Phineas Gage, who suffered massive frontal lobe trauma when a spike went through it, destroying most of the left side. This self-aware individual had dramatic changes in his personality, of which non-where his choice. It has been noted many times since that brain damage can indeed alter personality, sexual habits, language skills, and it can even make a religious person deny their god. The fact is that much of who we are depends on the brain, and things can change without any choice when a traumatic shock to the brain occurs.

 

[Autodidact]

If what you're saying is correct then we would see mass homosexual lifestyles (i.e. not random and temporary activity) with farm animals and other overpopulated areas would we not? That does not even involve the human element, which is the power of choice and being aware of one's self.


Hanging onto some Amazonian jungle bird or bug is just not good enough to apply to the human race nor the fact that they have free will, the power of choice, self-awareness and the ability to further develop almost any aspect of their self if desired.

I don't know any case where some measly genetic factor completely obsoleted a person's choices and decisions regarding their own development. Genetics do not control the individual to the point as if they have no choice to change circumstances and develop their own self even further. Once again, animals have no choice and cannot choose their direction or to develop themselves when they have abnormal impulses and behavior.

No one is making this claim. I'm pretty sure I've explained this to you a few times. Are you hard of understanding?
Tell us what you mean by "abnormal."

 

[Autodidact]

Uh, that is another bad comparison. That would regard envirement and writing indoctronation. People can choose to change hands. Amputees do it all the time with no problem. So, that would be counterproductive to your arguement.

Yes, left-handed people can learn to write with their right hands, but why should they? Homosexual people can have straight sex, but why should they?

It’s a simple question. How can someone not be self-aware and not have any choices involved as they went that direction and developed the orientation.

That's not the question. No one is claiming that gay people are not self-aware, don't have any choices, etc. What I'm saying is that there appears to be a heritable component to homosexuality. That's all. That means that gay people do not choose their attractions. What we can choose is whether to act on them. Since there is no reason not to, we do.

How could those factors not be involved when we're talking about a fully functioning conscious human being with self-awareness? You should be able to answer this question quite easy if what you're saying is so true.

I'm not claiming they're not involved. You dragged them into the discussion to confuse the conversation.

I am a lesbian. I'm self-aware. I have choices. I did not choose to have lesbian feelings, (although, given a choice, I probably would choose it, due to the enormous advantages to women of forming same-sex bonds.) I do choose whether to act on my natural lesbian orientation. I choose to be true to my own nature and act on those feelings, since they add to the love and happiness in the world and harm no one.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't know any case where some measly genetic factor completely obsoleted a person's choices and decisions regarding their own development.

Depression, OCD, ADD, ADHD, schizophrenia, bi-polar disorder, borderline personality disorder, and cyclothymia are just a few.

Genetics do not control the individual to the point as if they have no choice to change circumstances and develop their own self even further. Once again, animals have no choice and cannot choose their direction or to develop themselves when they have abnormal impulses and behavior.

If that was the case, twin studies wouldn't be prevalent, and the field of genetic studies and personality would not be emerging.

 

[Autodidact]

So, you're saying homosexuality is the natural order of things.

Exactly.

How could that be possible? Please, explain that one to me, lol?

Some people are born gay. That's natural.

The choice is then how the person acted and dealt with those influences, so once again, choice would be involved. How can you remove that one?

We don't choose our feelings. We choose whether to act on them. Isn't that obvious?

And, what is my bias exactly?

It appears to be anti-gay bigotry, as far as I can tell.

Choice was involved because self-awareness was involved.

Yes, so what?

There is no way it couldn't be involved.

Yes, human beings make choice. One of the things human beings don't choose is their own tastes or preferences. You don't choose to love or hate chocolate, you only choose whether to eat chocolate.

I want to know how someone can completely remove choice out of the equation.

You can't. I don't know why you keep driveling on about it.

How did you remove choice out of the equation?

You don't.

Can you back that up with evidence or should I start using your own word such as, "bias?"

No one is making that claim, so no one needs to back it up.

Animals have instincts and no choice about it. We still have instincts, but also have choice along with it as the primary controller and factor.

Yes, we have choice. We all get that. I have choice. You have choice. All God's chillun got choice. What does it have to do with our subject?

It’s a simple question. How could someone NOT be self-aware and NOT have any choices involved as they went that direction. How could those factors not be involved when we're talking about a fully functioning conscious human being with self-awareness? You need to provide evidence that choice is not involved... IMO.

They're all involved. No one is claiming they're not. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

 

[The Wizard]

To educate you on the article, it is about a man named Phineas Gage, who suffered massive frontal lobe trauma when a spike went through it, destroying most of the left side. This self-aware individual had dramatic changes in his personality, of which non-where his choice. It has been noted many times since that brain damage can indeed alter personality, sexual habits, language skills, and it can even make a religious person deny their god. The fact is that much of who we are depends on the brain, and things can change without any choice when a traumatic shock to the brain occurs.

So, you can't really answer the simple question yourself? You have to go by what other people say and not your own thinking. Am I correct? I would think if it were true then the anwser would be quite easy and short. I want someone to provide evidence that choice is not involved. How do you remove choice and self awareness out of the equation- in your own words- without quotes and stories...please.

 

[Autodidact]

So, homosexuals are just and animal following instincts with no self-awareness and sence of choice? That is what you're saying is it not? If it isn't then how could choice not be involved?

No. No one is saying this. Please stop asking this. The only saying this is you.

Homosexuals are like heterosexuals. It feels the same to us as your sexuality feels to you. We are born with it, just like you. What's so hard to understand about that? You can choose to be celibate. It doesn't change the fact that you were born a sexual being.

Ya, but.. if you haven't noticed. Animals also tear each other to pieces and eat one another. So, if I follow that instinct then I should not be held accountable... I mean, I really had no choice... I'm just following some outdated instinct. Do you see where that analogy leads to...? Like I said, not a good comparison for self-aware humans.

You're getting confused again. That animals do it doesn't mean it's right, it means it's natural. Not everything that's natural is right. Homosexuality is both natural and right.

I thought you just said it wasn't a choice. A preference can be a choice and influenced by envirement. Please make up your mind.

A preference cannot be a choice, only whether to act on it.

I wouldn't recommend telling that to people that have and always will change things about their self through choice and developement. Of course we have choice... do we not choose our own actions, naturally inspired or not?

Exactly. It's just that there's no reason to, and it's damaging to the individual and the poor people they're creating fake relationships with. Just imagine your self trying to change into a homosexual. Wouldn't be good for you or the poor guy you're experimenting with, would it?

See, you dodged the question. You cannot answere a question with a question. Show me evidence that people were not self-aware and choice was not a factor... If you cannot it only shows how flimsy the stance is to begin with... IMO.

*sigh* You're right back where you started. Try reading my posts and thinking about what I'm saying, so I don't have to say it over and over.

 

[Autodidact]

So, once again, how does the gene factor trump self-awareness and choice? I would think people would just face up and be proud of their choices. Instead of paint theirself as a genetic victom.... IMO.

Lesbianism is not a choice; it's a blessing. I am fortunate enough to be born a lesbian. I have enough integrity to be true to my nature, and live a life that expresses my own natural capacity for love and connection, instead of trying to live a fake life as a lousy heterosexual.

 

[The Wizard]

They're all involved. No one is claiming they're not. I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

Aha! Thank you... now see that makes some sence.

 

[Autodidact]

How can a self-aware, "conscious" human being not involve choices and decisions in the matter? When they first had the influence they would be aware of it and that would therefore involve a choice on their part on what to do about it.

Genetic or not, they would be aware of it and a choice would be involved. Right? I mean, if every person that had an homosexual urge followed it, as in not having a choice in the matter, the statistics would be much higher I would think... IMO.

Why? Wouldn't it depend on how many people have homosexual feelings?

 

[Autodidact]

so, you can't really answer the simple question yourself? You have to go by what other people say and not your own thinking. Am i correct? I would think if it were true then the anwser would be quite easy and short. I want someone to provide evidence that choice is not involved. How do you remove choice and self awareness out of the equation- in your own words- without quotes and stories...please.

no one is claiming that choice is not involved.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So, you can't really answer the simple question yourself? You have to go by what other people say and not your own thinking. Am I correct? I would think if it were true then the anwser would be quite easy and short. I want someone to provide evidence that choice is not involved. How do you remove choice and self awareness out of the equation- in your own words- without quotes and stories...please.

I did give a simple answer: We don't really have much, if any, choice. I then provided examples to back my claim up that we are not always making choices. Lobotomies were also used as a way to alter someone's personality. Brainwashing also removes the essence of choice. Society does have a huge influence on choice.
Think back to the last time you had a sudden and severe itch. Did you ignore it, think about scratching it before actually scratching it, or did you just go straight to scratching it? Or the last time someone suddenly tossed something at you. Did you think about moving your hand in front of the object, and then think about closing your fingers to grasp the object, or did you just do it? Do you consciously think about breathing and making your heart pump, or does it just happen?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now of course we do have the option to choose to act on homosexual thoughts, just as we can choose to act on heterosexual thoughts, but repressing one's sexuality is not healthy, and can result in people taking drastic measures to satisfy their natural urges.

 

[The Wizard]

no one is claiming that choice is not involved.

Really. Have you just read the last 3 pages? It's been the only real point I have been trying to make amongst the mountain of disagreement. I believe you even argued against me. You must be blind to say that, seriously. So, now, how does this explain bi-sexuals? Is this considered a genetic thing too? Also, if one has homosexual influences and "chooses" to develope a hetrosexual orientation then what does that make them?

 

[Autodidact]

Really. Have you just read the last 3 pages? It's been the only real point I have been trying to make amongst the mountain of disagreement. I believe you even argued against me. You must be blind to say that, seriously. So, now, how does this explain bi-sexuals? Is this considered a genetic thing too? Also, if one has homosexual influences and "chooses" to develope a hetrosexual orientation then what does that make them?

Yes, I realize it's the only point you're trying to make, but you're the only one trying to make it. No one but you is claiming that homosexuals have no choice. On the contrary, we are all trying to get you to see that we homosexuals have the exact same amount of choice as you. Get it?

Yes, I would say that a large part of one's orientation on the homo/bi/heterosexual continuum is genetic or otherwise inborn.

If someone is naturally homosexual, and chooses to try to live as a heterosexual, it makes them a poor, miserable liar.

 

[The Wizard]

Now of course we do have the option to choose to act on homosexual thoughts, just as we can choose to act on heterosexual thoughts, but repressing one's sexuality is not healthy, and can result in people taking drastic measures to satisfy their natural urges.

Well, that makes sense... haha.. the MM quote you have. I just caught that, lol