homosexuality disproves evolution

[The Wizard]

Most of our behaviour is beyond our control.
If you disagree, then start being homosexual. Now.
Can't do it? I wonder why...

That is a well capsulated myth that also depends on the behavior, circumstances and the person. That is one huge broad brush stroke. Our behavior and impulses are indeed within our control in the longterm- with choice- effort- discipline- guidence- treatment- and development. I would not suggest saying that statement to people that "want and choose" to change things about their own behavior or loved one's. Saying it is beyond control is self-destructive and quite simply irresponsible.

Once, again... self-awareness and choice has been left out of your equation.

As far as the rest is concerned, you are posing another false premises. It is one of their favorite twists to escape the presence of choice again. I didn't have to choose anything because the straight life is the natural order of things around me and in the world. There was no fork in the middle of road sort of speak. On the other hand, you can bet someone was self-aware and choice was also involved if they had other impulses and tendencies, unless they're simply unconcsious of the world and people around them, which would be most likely false or a lie.

 

[waitasec]

That is a well capsulated myth that also depends on the behavior, circumstances and the person. That is one huge broad brush stroke. Our behavior and impulses are indeed within our control in the longterm- with choice- effort- discipline- guidence- treatment- and development. I would not suggest saying that statement to people that "want and choose" to change things about their own behavior or loved one's. Saying it is beyond control is self-destructive and quite simply irresponsible.

do you choose to be heterosexual?

 

[The Wizard]

if i may,
can you back this up?

I'm not sure what I would have to back up about it. Every living organism has its necessities for optimum well-being, survival and benefit. Human beings are not exempt. There are objective values and subjective values. I was speaking about objective necessities in accordance to nature's design.

by whom?

What do you mean by whom? Ask anyone about that weird Pagan ritual he mentioned and everyone will call it abnormal behavior and most likely not healthy. Well, at least in this day and age... IMO.

 

[waitasec]

I'm not sure what I would have to back up about it.

so is your bias justification or do you want to provide evidence to back up your claim?

What do you mean by whom? Ask anyone about that weird Pagan ritual he mentioned and everyone will call it abnormal behavior and most likely not healthy. Well, at least in this day and age... IMO.

i'm sorry, what pagan ritual... i think i'm missing something..or is this about homosexuality?

 

[The Wizard]

do you choose to be heterosexual?

I have already explained that one. When the world and people around someone is heterosexual oriented then other choices don't even enter into the equation. So, what is there to choose from? Its the natural order of things.

To be homosexual in a heterosexual world involves the activity of also choosing the direction and orientation and being self-aware of it. Because what is around them is different and contrary than what they are doing and they would be aware of that, which puts the fork in the middle of the road, which requires a choice- a choice to either change the current direction or continue on that path.

Did you "choose" to speak English?

 

[The Wizard]

so is your bias justification or do you want to provide evidence to back up your claim??

O.k. You have completely lost me on whatever it is you're talking about. What is your disagreement? How can I be bias? Bias to what- objective reality. Human beings have specific requirements on every level to acquire optimum survival and well-being (i.e. certain foods for health, self-esteem for psychological, etc). I don't understand why I would have to back up such a common sense fact or provide any evidence of that.

i'm sorry, what pagan ritual... i think i'm missing something..or is this about homosexuality?

Someone was saying that a "hypotheses" was that homosexuality was practiced because it made females more fertile (something to that effect, a page or two back). Am I wrong to say that most people would consider that abnormal and unhealthy behavior?

 

[DarkSun]

Once, again... self-awareness and choice has been left out of your equation.

Okay, if you're so adament about this, then please choose to do the following.

1. Choose to change your opinion on this matter.
2. Choose to change your sexual orientation so that you are attracted to teaspoons.
3. Choose to succumb to clinical depression.
4. Then choose to recover from it.
5. Become addicted to pure nicotene.
6. Choose to recover from it.
7. Choose to change your sexual orientation so you like men.
8. a If you are an aggressive person, choose to become anxious with fear when under stress, or, b If you are an anxious person choose to become aggressive when you are under stress.
9. Choose to change your skin colour to purple (this phenotype is theoretically possible in humans).
10. Choose to grow wings and fly (and so is this one).

See, the thing is, science is actually of the inclination right now that behaviours are attributable to both genetic and environmental factors. They know this because of statistical analysis they have done on monozygotic and dizygotic twins. If you want the details, you can look up the relevant articles, or feel free to ask me for sources. But the crux of it is, your opinion that people are in complete control of their behaviour doesn't stand up to evidence. Apperception gives us some choice, but usually we don't use it, and do what we are designed to. Our biology and our society dictate the way we think and behave. There's nothing more to it than that.

 

[DarkSun]

I'm not sure what I would have to back up about it. Every living organism has its necessities for optimum well-being, survival and benefit. Human beings are not exempt. There are objective values and subjective values. I was speaking about objective necessities in accordance to nature's design.

I have given you an article which proposes a mechanism for the evolution of homosexuality within species. Homosexuality exists everywhere in nature, not just with humans. How can something that appears everywhere in nature, be unnatural? Humans aren't the only homosexuals. If you refuse to listen to the evidence given to you, then I will flag you for trolling. Stop wasting everyone's time.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Hello Wizard,

The American Psychological Association states that

Sexual orientation, homosexuality and bisexuality

No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. For most people, sexual orientation emerges in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.

These very smart people who have done research on the topic, categorically state that homosexuality is not a choice.

How do you reconcile your belief that homosexuality is a choice with the fact that people much much smarter than you say it isn't?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

Wizard may be right to a degree, so lets not get too hasty...I think it is possible to reinforce sexual behaviours by repetition.

An experiment carried out by a scientist in the 50's involved stimulating the sexual pleasure aspect of the brain using electrical impulses from inserted electrodes.
The scientist was trying to cure a homosexual man of homosexuality by showing images of naked females and heterosexual sex whilst electrically stimulating the pleasure part of the brain as described..it worked to a degree the man started to find females sexually arousing but he still found males sexually arousing...the scientist had actually 'made' him bisexual....bit of a backfire....according to the story in my book.

 

[camanintx]

I have already explained that one. When the world and people around someone is heterosexual oriented then other choices don't even enter into the equation. So, what is there to choose from? Its the natural order of things.

To be homosexual in a heterosexual world involves the activity of also choosing the direction and orientation and being self-aware of it. Because what is around them is different and contrary than what they are doing and they would be aware of that, which puts the fork in the middle of the road, which requires a choice- a choice to either change the current direction or continue on that path.

Did you "choose" to speak English?

So someone raised by heterosexuals in a heterosexual community cannot choose to be homosexual?

 

[Valjean]

No-one's saying sexual orientation has one, single cause. It's not a simple thing like eye color. But in most cases it does not appear related to parenting or socialization or politics. Like left handedness, it appears to be a natural variation.

This "cant be natural because it would lead to extinction" argument keeps coming up. Why, I can't imagine, since even a casual look at the evidence belies it. Homosexuality occurs in plenty of species that have been thriving for millions of years, and in social animals it's common for only one pair in a group to reproduce. Psychological and behavioral diversity appears to be selective for the species -- and it's at this level that evolution operates. Even aberrant and neurotic behaviors -- deleterious to the individual -- are retained, as they appear to benefit the group as a whole.

 

[Gunfingers]

Wizard may be right to a degree, so lets not get too hasty...I think it is possible to reinforce sexual behaviours by repetition.

An experiment carried out by a scientist in the 50's involved stimulating the sexual pleasure aspect of the brain using electrical impulses from inserted electrodes.
The scientist was trying to cure a homosexual man of homosexuality by showing images of naked females and heterosexual sex whilst electrically stimulating the pleasure part of the brain as described..it worked to a degree the man started to find females sexually arousing but he still found males sexually arousing...the scientist had actually 'made' him bisexual....bit of a backfire....according to the story in my book.

If you're going to go that invasive you can also kill someone's survival instinct. I mean, at that point you're talking about literally reprogramming a person.

It's certainly well out of the realm of "voluntary choice".

 

[DarkSun]

If you're going to go that invasive you can also kill someone's survival instinct. I mean, at that point you're talking about literally reprogramming a person.

It's certainly well out of the realm of "voluntary choice".

If I were gay, I'd sooner die than choose to change who I was just because a bunch of two-year-old-adults found me yucky. They can get over themselves.

 

[Jacksnyte]

:jam:unk:

If I were gay, I'd sooner die than choose to change who I was just because a bunch of two-year-old-adults found me yucky. They can get over themselves.

:drums:unk::jam:

 

[Autodidact]

So, that would possibly explain the twin scenerio in the article? But, this still implies genetics, which implies a genetic factor, which is still what I disagree with. I don't know one case in which some measly genetic factor completely obsoleted a person's choices and decisions regarding their own developement. Genetics do not control the individual to the point as if they have no choice to change circumstances and develope their own self even further. What am I missing?

Nobody is asserting this. People are merely pointing out that homosexuality seems to be heritable, or at least largely inborn.

I assume the MRI would pick up something, but that doesn't rule out the results of influence, envirement, personal developement and choices. MRI's do not focus on someone's genetics, just brain activity, unless I'm mistaken.

Correct.

Of course it doesn't. Wouldn't that be a worst nightmare-to know that choice is also involved? It's the same thing with alchoholics- disregard all aspects of choice, responsibility of self-development and self-awareness in the equation. So how does that explain why more people are becoming homosexuals in a country? The increase corollates with the amount that that alternative/option/choice is put in public.

Bad analogy. btw, you're simply wrong. Homosexuality is not increasing. It shows up at about the same rate throughout history and around the world.

Once again, if no self-awareness or choice was involved in the equation. Then that means that they absolutely didn't notice any difference in the direction they were going when and as they were choosing that direction, as opposed to the people and world around them. Did they not notice the 500 ton fork sitting in the middle of the road? They had to also choose that direction. They didn't just unconcsiously sleep their way into the orientation and lifestyle... IMO.

Did you just unconsciously sleep your way into your orientation and lifestyle? At what point did you choose your sexual and affectional preference?

They accepted it and were O.K. with that direction. Somewhere they concidered that they were gay and everything snowballed from there. That is my opinion.

And it's right. I accepted: To thine own self be true, and it follows as the night does the day, thou cans't be false to no man.

So, here is the simplest question I can think of. If you cannot answere this simple question then I have made my point. How... yes... HOW could someone NOT be self-aware and NOT have any choice involved as they went that direction.

How can you not be self-aware and NOT have any choice involved as you went that direction?

It's really not that complicated, Wizard. We don't choose our feelings. We choose our actions. Since there is nothing immoral about acting on homosexual feelings, there is no reason why not to, and no reason to discriminate against gay people.

Were they asleep when it happened? Did they become a hyptotized zombie as they were going down that road? Did a gene god command them to follow instructions? Please, enlighten me. How could these factors NOT be involved when we're talking about a fully functioning conscious human being with self-awareness?

You seem to be deeply confused between heritability and free-will. Just ask yourself the same questions and it may help clarify for you.

 

[Autodidact]

I'm sorry, my face just cracked from laughing so hard.

Probably because you don't know anything about genetics. What we observe is that mothers and sisters of gay men have increased fertility. It may be that a gene that produces increased fertility in women, when passed on to a son on the X chromosome, with no corresponding gene on the smaller Y chromosome, causes homosexuality in the males. Another way to describe this is to say that male homosexuality is vestigial. That is, it does not directly benefit the male (evolutonarily speaking) but is an accidental result of an evolutionary benefit to his mothers and sisters.

 

[Autodidact]

There is a difference between mocking and just laughing and sharing the response outload. I was just laughing there. I had to... I couldn't help it. Sue me... If you want to think otherwise I have no antidote for that. But, I disagree with the entire premise anyway because we are a functioning conscious human being with self- awareness and the power of choice at almost all moments and activity.

The hypothesis you mentioned sounds more like some old cultural or traditional Pagan ritual or something. I see that people are desperate in incorporating homosexuality into evolution and genetic theories to get out of the word, "choice", but we are an organism designed to behave and act in a specific manner for optimum benifit, survival and well-being.

Such acts are considered abnormal behavior and unnatural as far as many aspects of the human being's survival and benefit is concerned. Occum's Razor.....

O.K. try this thought experiment: Choose to be gay. Choose to prefer same sex partners. Start now.

 

[Autodidact]

That is a well capsulated myth that also depends on the behavior, circumstances and the person. That is one huge broad brush stroke. Our behavior and impulses are indeed within our control in the longterm- with choice- effort- discipline- guidence- treatment- and development. I would not suggest saying that statement to people that "want and choose" to change things about their own behavior or loved one's. Saying it is beyond control is self-destructive and quite simply irresponsible.

Once, again... self-awareness and choice has been left out of your equation.

As far as the rest is concerned, you are posing another false premises. It is one of their favorite twists to escape the presence of choice again. I didn't have to choose anything because the straight life is the natural order of things around me and in the world. There was no fork in the middle of road sort of speak. On the other hand, you can bet someone was self-aware and choice was also involved if they had other impulses and tendencies, unless they're simply unconcsious of the world and people around them, which would be most likely false or a lie.

How can I put this? Oh yeah. You're wrong.

Here's an analogy that may help. Most people are born right-handed. Some people are born left-handed. For left-handed people, it's natural to be left-handed. They did not choose it, and it's hard for them to change.

 

[waitasec]

I have already explained that one. When the world and people around someone is heterosexual oriented then other choices don't even enter into the equation. So, what is there to choose from? Its the natural order of things.

you are entitled to your opinion. but thats all it is.
simply because you haven't provided evidence to support this natural order of things hypothesis.

To be homosexual in a heterosexual world involves the activity of also choosing the direction and orientation and being self-aware of it.
Because what is around them is different and contrary than what they are doing

there is a difference between doing and being

and they would be aware of that,

of course they are aware of it... so?

which puts the fork in the middle of the road,
which requires a choice- a choice to either change the current direction or continue on that path.

no there is no choice. it's an instinct:an inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli: or a powerful impulse, attraction to their same sex...

you still haven't provided any credible evidence that supports your bias.
therefore it's just an uninformed opinion., from what i gather.

Did you "choose" to speak English?

this has to do with adapting to your environment, not an innate sense of aptitude, or an instinct.

if you can provide studies that propose instinct as a choice...i'd like to read up on that...

if you would like to make an informed decision here are some links to get you started...
Choice - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Preference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Sexual orientation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia