Homosexuality is not a sin!

[emiliano]

I find it pathetic that God would give us instincts such as the 7 deadly sins and then tell us to not do them. Who is he to challenge us. What does he stand to gain by making us prove ourselves.
It is natural for lust after other people. Why shouldn't we? God didn't tell us not to, the bible does. What do we stand to gain by restricting our natural instincts? A place in heaven? Pffft... what do we have to base this on? The bible, hardly convincing.

I could never be a Christian, i think it is abhorent to prevent myself from doing things that come naturally to me.

What is natural is the instinct to procreate, to preserve our gene pool, we share this with irrational brutes, but because of our rationality God gave us the Moral Law to live by we are rational thus we can work it out, we can tell what is natural for humans and what isn’t natural for humans, brutes may commit unnatural acts but they don’t have the power of reason to know any better, we are miles apart from other irrational brutes, why behave like they do? I don't think that you could become a Christian either, not to worry though heaven will be glorious even without you in it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What is natural is the instinct to procreate, to preserve our gene pool, we share this with irrational brutes, but because of our rationality God gave us the Moral Law to live by we are rational thus we can work it out, we can tell what is natural for humans and what isn’t natural for humans, brutes may commit unnatural acts but they don’t have the power of reason to know any better, we are miles apart from other irrational brutes, why behave like they do? I don't think that you could become a Christian either, not to worry though heaven will be glorious even without you in it.

Brutes also commit natural acts, so why should we do anything natural?

 

[tumbleweed41]

To JMorris.
Right of the Church to Excommunicate
The right to excommunicate is an immediate and necessary consequence of the fact that the Church is a society. Every society has the right to exclude and deprive of their rights and social advantages its unworthy or grievously culpable members, either temporarily or permanently.
I like to point out that as told you before excommunications are for Members who, by their obstinate disobedience, reject the means of attaining a common end, which is fellowship. They deserve to be removed from such a society if they persist in their disobedience. But they are given ample opportunities to repent and change. And I like to remind you that I said that the times that we have been asked to go to the polls we go with our whole being, we cast our vote (I am trying to sty on topic here). Now as I said the Church legislate on all of this in their society.

Any ways let see your concerns and see what secular societies do:

If the boasting is in relation to say a service and when tested it is found not to be what the boasting promised, you can sue , there are law in place that give you the right to sue.

Again there are laws in relation to slander and confidentiality breeches.

If one makes oneself a nuisance by it there are laws that apply.

When it contains lies, disrespect or slander it should be banned, this right has been overly abused, it need more limit settings.

Which of these "sins" shall we legislate?
So all of these issues have been addressed and we must be careful in the way that we use this right or we may see ourselves in a court of law a secular court and be excommunicate to jail.

Ignorance and stupidity are uglier.

You listed laws of the state under certain circumstances, not what the book of Romans states are offenses to God.
So then the answer is, NO, the church does not excommunicate for the offenses listed in Romans 1, other than homosexuality.
Ignorance and stupidity are not uglier than hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is ignorant and stupid.

 

[Alceste]

But sweetie, that is my opinion and the opinion of the Churches that I attend to, I do not attend Churches that have unrepeated gays with priest in pink hot pants and a bunch of Homos nancyng around the alter, anyway I like your solution, congregational segregation sounds good to me, if they drop the title of Christians it would be even better, I don’t hate them so I have nothing against them having Gay Churches, just don’t expect me to tell them that they will be OK and have any fellowship with them, and please don’t twist the scriptures to accommodate them in a Christian Church, form your own and don’t call it Christian Church, don’t call gay unions marriages because they are not marriages, call them something else. Be creative!
And sweetie the United Church is divided in this issue and there will be chasm and it was a small Church to begin with so there will two segregate UC, another point that I like to make is that all organized Churches have confession-repentance-forgiveness- clean slate status for many, many failures at attempts at abstinence; there is a process to follow before excommunication, what I referred to is those gays that refused to repent and try abstinence and attempt to distort our tenets, so I am afraid that this is another very dead straw man, this kind either become anti-Christianity atheist or follower of seductive doctrines of demons. As I said Christianity demands repentance and life style change as a condition for fellowship.

Honeybunch, you completely missed my point. Your church is a minority church. If anybody should be finding a new word for what they are it's you, not the Catholics, who built Christianity from the ground up. They selected the gospels you take so literally as the word of God in order to spread their religion, not yours. If anybody's got dibs on the word "Christian", it's the Catholics, who make up the vast majority of "Christians" around the globe. Lucky for you, they're willing to share. I shudder to think what your religion would end up being called if the Catholics put a copyright on the word "Christianity."

 

[Big_TJ]

But this behaviors are so alien to heterosexuals, how can be equality between these two?
This are people acting in an unnatural way, How can this be equal to what is natural?

Let me declare my hand (unlike Emiliano). I am straight and I am homophobic (no stones please . .:no. But I also have common sense!

Questions for Emiliano:
1)How do you know that hetrosexuality is "natural?"
2)What makes it "natural"?
3)Who determined that hetrosexuality is natural?
4)What do you mean by it being natural?
5)Why is it that not everyone will agree that it is natural (in other words, gays don't say " I know that hetrosexual is natural but I'm gonna be a *** anyway"

The thought of using religious belief to condemn sexual orientation is sick; its better to be man enough to say "I hate those ****!" without using religious beliefs.

 

[darkendless]

Let me declare my hand (unlike Emiliano). I am straight and I am homophobic (no stones please . .:no. But I also have common sense!

Questions for Emiliano:
1)How do you know that hetrosexuality is "natural?"
2)What makes it "natural"?
3)Who determined that hetrosexuality is natural?
4)What do you mean by it being natural?
5)Why is it that not everyone will agree that it is natural (in other words, gays don't say " I know that hetrosexual is natural but I'm gonna be a *** anyway"

The thought of using religious belief to condemn sexual orientation is sick; its better to be man enough to say "I hate those ****!" without using religious beliefs.

While i'm not a fan of homophobes (mainly because all of those i've met have been fundies), at least you have the guts to stand up and be honest. You're not hiding behind a silly book.

 

[Alceste]

Let me declare my hand (unlike Emiliano). I am straight and I am homophobic (no stones please . .:no. But I also have common sense!


The thought of using religious belief to condemn sexual orientation is sick; its better to be man enough to say "I hate those ****!" without using religious beliefs.

Yeah, but how do you feel about those lesbians?

 

[dawny0826]

It seems that you have not read my posts or I managed to confuse you as well (my English is not good) I been trying to explain to these people that obstinate disobedience is what brings excommunication to a Christian, there are many examples of what this is it. Have I proposed any violence against them? In all that embracing that you propose, is there a call to repentance and change to go with the embraces? What do you think of the twisting of scriptures to make these behaviors acceptable in the Church? I believe that no one is saved by us or through us. Only God saves. We are to preach the word and they come, what could be the reason for some not to answer the call to Salvation? You can preach to these obstinate disobedient people till purple in the face with the some final result mocking, insults and slander, is it God failure? Is it the word failure? Is it the Holy Spirit? There is a discussion in the forum on free will that may help. BTW I also think that the seven deadly are as bad as unnatural sexual lust, are you saying that our failures in these areas make homosexual activities OK?

I can't claim with a clear conscience that homosexual activites aren't sinful. I also can't state with any certainty that God doesn't want homosexuals in His Kingdom.

What of homosexuals who embrace God? There are homosexuals who reconcile their choices with Christianity. Is their relationship with God less valid than ours? Although you didn't express violence in your post, there is arrogance in my opinion, in the statement that homosexuals are unwelcome in God's Kingdom. Should we not leave this judgement to God?

In thinking of sin...all of the sin that exists even amongst Christians (we sin too) I can't help but to think that we waste time focusing on homosexuality as often as we do. Far too much energy is exerted widening drifts.

 

[JMorris]

Yeah, but how do you feel about those lesbians?

9 times out of 10, any time a male is railing against homosexuality, their railing against male homosexuality. not only does female homosexuality tend to get a pass, but isnt even considered when their going on with their homophobia. might not be true for female homophobes, but generally when a person is railing against homosexuality, its the males their insulting, and not the females.

 

[Alceste]

9 times out of 10, any time a male is railing against homosexuality, their railing against male homosexuality. not only does female homosexuality tend to get a pass, but isnt even considered when their going on with their homophobia. might not be true for female homophobes, but generally when a person is railing against homosexuality, its the males their insulting, and not the females.

I was just asking because it's been my experience that ordinarily the non-religious guys who have trouble gayness in men love the idea of lesbians. So I thought maybe if he's into that sort of thing he could just go ahead and support gay marriage anyway, for the sake of the lesbians.

 

[JMorris]

I was just asking because it's been my experience that ordinarily the non-religious guys who have trouble gayness in men love the idea of lesbians. So I thought maybe if he's into that sort of thing he could just go ahead and support gay marriage anyway, for the sake of the lesbians.

i think thats probably true of both religious and non-religious males who are against homosexuality.

male homosexuality=bad
female homosexuality...........well that might be ok...........

 

[emiliano]

Honeybunch, you completely missed my point. Your church is a minority church. If anybody should be finding a new word for what they are it's you, not the Catholics, who built Christianity from the ground up. They selected the gospels you take so literally as the word of God in order to spread their religion, not yours. If anybody's got dibs on the word "Christian", it's the Catholics, who make up the vast majority of "Christians" around the globe. Lucky for you, they're willing to share. I shudder to think what your religion would end up being called if the Catholics put a copyright on the word "Christianity."

Well then, if it make you happy let them call themselves Gay Christians, but I really like your Idea of segregation, although I would have no problem making the difference and would attend services in a proper Christian Church even if they call themselves whatever they like, what I object to is the attempt to use our resources and twisting our tenet, I have a system of believe that is based in the fundament of our Christian Faith, I am a fundamentalist, So Honeybunch I got into this discussion to clarify for all the others Honeybunches that Homosexuality is not sin, having sex men with men and women with women is, and that the Church demands repentance and a change of life’s style as a condition for membership and fellowship. Beside that I live in a country that have found the solution to the argument of inequality in the law and particularly in the areas of welfare, so activists that are trying to shove the acceptance of this behavior down our throats have little in the way of arguments, it is an unnatural behavior and that’s that. As you surely have noticed they get quite heavy handed a times and there are confrontations, we are lucky that we as a country do not have many things such an unclear constitution or discrimination that can be used to embarrass us as is the case of the US, the United Church at one stage even had a Senator and a political party, but he resigned over the Gay’s issue and is now an independent, another thing is that it has been a very long time since I heard of violent acts against gays.
I liked you quip "I shudder to think what your religion would end up being called if the Catholics put a copyright on the word "Christianity." They did they call us Protestants, as for same sex marriages it's done, it is exclusively use for the union between a man and a woman. I love this country?

 

[emiliano]

You listed laws of the state under certain circumstances, not what the book of Romans states are offenses to God.
So then the answer is, NO, the church does not excommunicate for the offenses listed in Romans 1, other than homosexuality.
Ignorance and stupidity are not uglier than hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is ignorant and stupid.

The church excommunicate only if there are obstinate disobedience and a refusal to repent, atone and change in any areas of morality, people that divorce, adulterous, murderers, thief , sexually immoral, envious, just try to confess any of this sin and tell them that you have not intention to repent and change and you will excommunicate before you can say what!

 

[emiliano]

Hi TJ, thanks for your questions I have explained this already but I may have botch it, so see if I can make a better job this time.
You asked me:

Questions for Emiliano:
1)How do you know that hetrosexuality is "natural?"

Well have a look at your body and pay attention to your reproductive organs, where do you think that it fit and for what purpose?

2)What makes it "natural"?

It is built for the purpose of procreation and that is nature a natural instinct.

3)Who determined that hetrosexuality is natural?

Reason determines it, have another look at it.

4)What do you mean by it being natural?

Again the instinct to procreate is perfectly natural is the instinct to preserve one’s gene pool, preserve the species (you know that God did it, don’t you)

5)Why is it that not everyone will agree that it is natural (in other words, gays don't say " I know that hetrosexual is natural but I'm gonna be a *** anyway"

Again reason and perception, I said that I believe that is a thought disorder affecting perception a disorder mind, but folks in here get very touchy about this, so I hope that you get it.

The thought of using religious belief to condemn sexual orientation is sick; its better to be man enough to say "I hate those ****!" without using religious beliefs.

You are missing the potty completely with this crap, read the OP and think of what is it that we are discussing, then make a bigger effort to think again and read what my position is, the incline to homosexuality is not a sin, having gay sex is, this was presented in the religious context that is why religious concepts are been used, I can't say that I hate them because I don’t, I don’t want them in my Church unless they repent and change, most of them turn to an anti-Christianity type of atheism so there is no problem, at work and in the community is different thing altogether, this OP was put up for discussion in a religious section of the forum so we discuss in a religious way. What your reasons are to hate them? And what do you do? You been a man, man and all it could be interesting,

 

[emiliano]

Dawny,
It is that I am a Christian and believe in the tenets set out in scripture; to me the Bible is God inspired, and thus I believe what the Apostle Paul wrote. He tells us that they won’t be in the kingdom I can tell you that unrepentant homosexuals that die in their sins (unrepentant) will not be there.
You asked: What of homosexuals who embrace God?
This means that God in His mercy brought them to repentance and changed them, they aren’t homosexual any more. God is infallible in his election! It is God Mercy and the proof that they are called is that they change.

1Cr 6:9
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, ​

Is this arrogant? And the Saint finished it.

1Cr 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. ​

You see it? Is clear to me and the Apostle that if God in His mercy elects them and are washed of their sins they are changed, as I told you we can’t saved anyone it is God that saves, people can get into all sorts of manipulations of the scripture but it won’t save them and is unloving to let them go in their merry ways into destruction.

You asked: Is their relationship with God less valid than ours?

What relationship? If they are not changed and continue in their sins they are lost and have no relationship with God at all.

You say: In thinking of sin...all of the sin that exists even amongst Christians (we sin too) I can't help but to think that we waste time focusing on homosexuality as often as we do. Far too much energy is exerted widening drifts.

You’re right I have topics on lust and tolerance that did not get many responses, so this is the center of attention. IMO this is due to the fact that this is a very vocal and belligerent minority group of people, they represent a very small percentage of the population and in the majority of cases they turn to atheism, the anti-Christianity kind.
What kind of Christian are you? I am a fundamentalist and Catholic inclined I am planning to returned to that faith soon.

 

[dawny0826]

Dawny,
It is that I am a Christian and believe in the tenets set out in scripture; to me the Bible is God inspired, and thus I believe what the Apostle Paul wrote. He tells us that they won’t be in the kingdom I can tell you that unrepentant homosexuals that die in their sins (unrepentant) will not be there.
You asked: What of homosexuals who embrace God?
This means that God in His mercy brought them to repentance and changed them, they aren’t homosexual any more. God is infallible in his election! It is God Mercy and the proof that they are called is that they change.

1Cr 6:9
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, ​

Is this arrogant? And the Saint finished it.

1Cr 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. ​

You see it? Is clear to me and the Apostle that if God in His mercy elects them and are washed of their sins they are changed, as I told you we can’t saved anyone it is God that saves, people can get into all sorts of manipulations of the scripture but it won’t save them and is unloving to let them go in their merry ways into destruction.

You asked: Is their relationship with God less valid than ours?

What relationship? If they are not changed and continue in their sins they are lost and have no relationship with God at all.

You say: In thinking of sin...all of the sin that exists even amongst Christians (we sin too) I can't help but to think that we waste time focusing on homosexuality as often as we do. Far too much energy is exerted widening drifts.

You’re right I have topics on lust and tolerance that did not get many responses, so this is the center of attention. IMO this is due to the fact that this is a very vocal and belligerent minority group of people, they represent a very small percentage of the population and in the majority of cases they turn to atheism, the anti-Christianity kind.
What kind of Christian are you? I am a fundamentalist and Catholic inclined I am planning to returned to that faith soon.

I am a non-denominational Trinitarian. I don't disagree with your interpretation of scripture regarding sin and punishment for sin but I disagree with the manner in which such scripture is presented time and time again.

Christ kept company with those who were likely dismissed as being lowly and unworthy. Christ taught us to love our neighbor and there is a hurting world of people out there who live day to day, fully aware of the hatred that others have for them, specifically people of our own faith. Quoting scripture on God's chastisement isn't going to stir hearts if presented in a manner where you're basically saying "This is right. YOU are wrong." It's self righteous and it's ineffective.

If you can't see this, I need explain no more.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The church excommunicate only if there are obstinate disobedience and a refusal to repent, atone and change in any areas of morality, people that divorce, adulterous, murderers, thief , sexually immoral, envious, just try to confess any of this sin and tell them that you have not intention to repent and change and you will excommunicate before you can say what!

When you can promptly walk down the street to the next church.

Excommunication from an evangelical church is completely meaningless.

 

[emiliano]

I am a non-denominational Trinitarian. I don't disagree with your interpretation of scripture regarding sin and punishment for sin but I disagree with the manner in which such scripture is presented time and time again.

Christ kept company with those who were likely dismissed as being lowly and unworthy. Christ taught us to love our neighbor and there is a hurting world of people out there who live day to day, fully aware of the hatred that others have for them, specifically people of our own faith. Quoting scripture on God's chastisement isn't going to stir hearts if presented in a manner where you're basically saying "This is right. YOU are wrong." It's self righteous and it's ineffective.

If you can't see this, I need explain no more.

This keep on coming up, I am under the impression that you save people, I is clear that we can’t, Jesus said that no one comes to him unless God draws them to Him, then again it is clear that is not in us to save. We just release the word and it will bring those that God elect, God is not running for office so He does not lie to become popular, when God cleanses they change, they become new creatures that live a spiritual life and are in control of the flesh and it desires. I am amaze at the power that these people exert, they have managed to get Christianity to abandon their tenets for new seductive ones, people become saviors/Christ, they want to force the Church to marry them or loose their tax exception, there has been cases where gay atheist have demand to be marry and when turn down have use the IR to punish them, the flesh and it desires becomes stronger than God, you can tell all kinds of people that they are saved but they can be till God says that they are, the Lord gave a warning about this in

Mat 16:26
For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? ​

In addition if the Epistles are God inspired; then we must be careful of what we approve in the Church, we must be ruled by God’s instructions so when it comes to marriage for example we must be ruled by

Mar 10:7
'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, ​

The only way we can help these people is to pray for them, to ask God to have mercy on them not to compromise our tenets to please them.

 

[emiliano]

When you can promptly walk down the street to the next church.

Excommunication from an evangelical church is completely meaningless.:no:

As I said I like the idea of congregational segregation, what I don't want or tolerate is obstinate unrepentant homosexual in my Church demanding changes to our tenet. These new Churches should establish their own Churches and cater for gays.
Excommunication from an evangelical church is completely meaningless.
Once I went to one evangelical church that expelled a young couple for the sin of premarital sex, they came back when they were properly marry though. I have a colleague that can’t have Holy Communion in her RCC because she is in a defacto relation (not married to the man with whom she lives) there are several kinds of excommunication in the Church.
I have found that Pastor are more touchy about descent than Catholic priests and less trained for the job, they quickly get rid of those that do not obey them when God talk to them telling what we should do, that is a kind of excommunication, isn’t it.

 

[Alceste]

So Honeybunch I got into this discussion to clarify for all the others Honeybunches that Homosexuality is not sin, having sex men with men and women with women is, and that the Church demands repentance and a change of life’s style as a condition for membership and fellowship.

There you go again. That should be "my church", not "the Church".

I liked you quip "I shudder to think what your religion would end up being called if the Catholics put a copyright on the word "Christianity." They did they call us Protestants.

Oh dear! Now what are you going to do? Be "anti-Protestants"?