Homosexuality

[sojourner]

The acts were same sex acts. I don't want to belabor with you exegesis.

Nor am I unsympathetic. I have gay friends and family, but the "natural" state of ALL persons who aren't born again is broken/hole in the life that only Christ can fill.

But they weren’t homosexual acts, since the authors had no concept for sexual orientation. “Same sex act” and “homosexuality” are different animals.

I doubt you could belabor me with anything I haven’t already fully exegeted myself, professionally.

I would argue that our natural state is wholeness, and that we have broken ourselves. And according to the best scientific, medical, and psychological evidence we have, homosexuality isn’t a “broken state” that needs “fixing.” In fact, it’s been determined that reparative “therapy” is way more harmful than helpful.

 

[night912]

You cannot logically knock my logic (!) since the Bible is inerrant, and will be meaningful when we're dust.

But you've already admitted that you're fallible, so you could be wrong about the bible being inerrant. KO!!!!

Too easy.

 

[DNB]

You call evil "compassion." Doesn't your religion forbid hypocrisy?

Yes, it does forbid hypocrisy, ...but, also complacency, indifference, acts of omission, misguidedness, hedonism, lasciviousness, etc...

 

[InChrist]

Contradictions after contradictions and excuses after excuses.


You mean like how he did not intervene in the freewill of the people of the Nazi party? Got it.


You mean like how the the members of the Nazi party chose to do? Got it.


You mean like how the people of the Nazi party used their freewill to choose evil? Got it.


So like how god didn't stop the NAZI from doing what they will to the Jews? Got it.


If you're going to use a bible verse, then at least used the correct one. God didn't bring judgment to Sodom and Gomorrah until after he was done negotiating with Abraham.

Genesis 18:20-21
20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.


Because the outcry against Nazi Germany is so great, and because their sins are very grave.........
.........God chose not to intervene nor bring justice to them. Instead, God let them continue on choosing to do evil by murdering over 6 MILLION Jews......


Did God intervened to save the righteous when the cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki burned to ashes? Or did God just let the righteous burned with the wicked like his original plan for bringing justice to Sodom and Gomorrah?

At the point in history when the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah occurred, God was dealing UNIQUELY with the children of Israel, giving them the promised land, and establishing them as a nation. If you understood biblical history and the unique purpose of Israel you would not be asking why God has not intervened throughout history. Nevertheless, your arguments are irrelevant to freewill, but you do prove that humanity is all too often guilty of evil. According to the scriptures, judgement and justice is coming for everyone and every crime.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Rival, if someone is inclined toward an act that God disapproves of, what should that person do?

If one is a cleptomaniac, what should that person do?

Give in and do it, or fight against their inclinations?

It depends what the action is and how it should be dealt with.

When it comes to homosexuality, this is not just like being a kleptomaniac - it is a person's whole love life and potential future. How he deals with it is between himself and God. I just cannot in good conscience stop two folks from being in love and engaging in consensual acts, even if I myself disagreed with them. If God finds it objectionable, let God deal with it.

No disrespect...you didn’t answer my questions. I think you know the answer..

Jehovah God is aware of the contradicting influences we face, combined with our own frailties, and He extends mercy to us. He’s not a harsh taskmaster....
But still, if a person wants to please their Creator, they would try hard and fight against their inclinations, if God disapproves of those behaviors, whatever they might be. And Jehovah God will provide His spirit to help in those instances, if we ask Him.
From harmless lying to drunkenness to promiscuity...etc.

One doesn’t have to ‘give in’. It is a challenge, that’s for sure, but I’ve known several people who have resisted their sexual orientation successfully. And they’re happy in knowing their efforts are not going unnoticed by God.

Two have remained celibate, & two are now married and have children. One died a faithful brother.

With effort, people can turn around. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

 

[Rival]

No disrespect...you didn’t answer my questions. I think you know the answer..

Jehovah God is aware of the contradicting influences we face, combined with our own frailties, and He extends mercy to us. He’s not a harsh taskmaster....
But still, if a person wants to please their Creator, they would try hard and fight against their inclinations, if God disapproves of those behaviors, whatever they might be. And Jehovah God will provide His spirit to help in those instances, if we ask Him.
From harmless lying to drunkenness to promiscuity...etc.

One doesn’t have to ‘give in’. It is a challenge, that’s for sure, but I’ve known several people who have resisted their sexual orientation successfully. And they’re happy in knowing their efforts are not going unnoticed by God.

Two have remained celibate, & two are now married and have children. One died a faithful brother.

With effort, people can turn around. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

I did answer you. I said 'It's between him and God'. Your answer would be to straight up tell homosexuals never to have gay sex. Some may try this, but not all can do this, in the same way very few heterosexuals can go without sex. My answer is 'whatever he thinks is best'.

Telling homosexuals to stay celibate clearly doesn't work for most of them and we have to be more compassionate. God might disapprove of it, that's fine - in which case, God can arbitrate depending on what the person chooses to do.

Your solution hasn't worked and leads folks to suicide. This is also a sin in your religion. So they can't win.

 

[sojourner]

No disrespect...you didn’t answer my questions. I think you know the answer..

Jehovah God is aware of the contradicting influences we face, combined with our own frailties, and He extends mercy to us. He’s not a harsh taskmaster....
But still, if a person wants to please their Creator, they would try hard and fight against their inclinations, if God disapproves of those behaviors, whatever they might be. And Jehovah God will provide His spirit to help in those instances, if we ask Him.
From harmless lying to drunkenness to promiscuity...etc.

One doesn’t have to ‘give in’. It is a challenge, that’s for sure, but I’ve known several people who have resisted their sexual orientation successfully. And they’re happy in knowing their efforts are not going unnoticed by God.

Two have remained celibate, & two are now married and have children. One died a faithful brother.

With effort, people can turn around. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

Science has determined that 1) homosexuality is normal and healthful, 2) reparative “therapy” is neither. Biblical scholarship shows us that 1) homosexuality is never mentioned in the texts, 2) there is no term for “homosexuality” in either Koine Greek or ancient Hebrew, 3) the acts the Bible prohibits are a) not an expression of loving, consensual, committed relationships, but rather acts of violence, b) the result of not having a thorough understanding of human sexuality.

God does not, according to the Bible, prohibit same-sex acts that are the expression of loving, committed, consensual relationship.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

3) the acts the Bible prohibits are a) not an expression of loving, consensual, committed relationships, but rather acts of violence, b) the result of not having a thorough understanding of human sexuality.

Leviticus 18:22...
“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman...”
No violence implied.

Your comment could be construed as twisting the Scriptures, in support of your own bias.
The Bible talks about that, you know.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I did answer you. I said 'It's between him and God'. Your answer would be to straight up tell homosexuals never to have gay sex. Some may try this, but not all can do this, in the same way very few heterosexuals can go without sex. My answer is 'whatever he thinks is best'.

Telling homosexuals to stay celibate clearly doesn't work for most of them and we have to be more compassionate. God might disapprove of it, that's fine - in which case, God can arbitrate depending on what the person chooses to do.

Your solution hasn't worked and leads folks to suicide. This is also a sin in your religion. So they can't win.

I’ve given you 5 separate cases that I personally knew of, where it was working & they were winning. Knowing that one is doing what is pleasing to their Creator is a powerful motivator.... it can be more powerful than pleasing ourselves. (Love can easily overcome selfish desires.) Plus, such self-control, which is a fruitage of God’s spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), results in receiving more of His help / spirit / blessing.

And Jehovah’s spirit is the most powerful force in the universe.


I know of no cases among JW’s where they committed suicide because of homosexuality.

Ancient Israel had a few serious laws, the breaking of which resulted in Capital Punishment.
This served mainly as a deterrent. But it also helped to keep the Israelites in a clean standing before Jehovah.
When they didn’t live by His standards, did Jehovah keep blessing / protecting them?

Do you think that could happen today? People could lose His protection & blessing?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Do you think that could happen today? People could lose His protection & blessing?

Nope. And I do know that Jehovah has been terrible for many, such as those of the LGBT community. Severe depression, terrible anxiety, low self esteem, lack of confidence, suicide, these are just a few symptoms often experienced by queers who try to appease Jehovah. And they fail so often that one after another anti-LGBT church leaders and promoters of reparative therapy are found to be having gay sex, or just come clean that it doesn't work.
And all the while Christians cling on to the few examples they can find of it working although when these few are compared to the many we see reparative therapy works less often than a placebo pill. They also have to and must hyper focus on early results of their programs because that's the only time they see success. But that's just about anything. Even fad diets show early success but long term they fail. Which does mean they don't work. Cults as well people feel great when they first join. Then some eventually realize they're in too deep to easily get out.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm following from @Vouthon's thread which seems to be going in a different direction.

I saw on there some folks saying that essentially homosexual kin should be let go of. I first would like to know how Christians accord this with 'forgive seventy times seven' and eating with sinners and so on, and second how could any person, in his heart, disown a brother or sister or whoever, or a friend, for this? One can disagree with the behaviour, or one can repudiate the person, but I don't think this is an issue like murder or rape, by any means. In every other area of his life he could be a stellar person, a model student, a great giver, a considerate worker, but you're going to kick him out because he fell in love with another boy?

Could you find it in yourself to disown someone over this? Some of your friends may be closeted, some may be out, some may be your brothers or sisters.

Is this the way forward? I disagree massively with what the LGBT movement has done and become and I do not own any of that. But that is not what I'm talking about.

We need to see the positives in others and overlook faults perceived or otherwise. It is important to develop friendships with those whose views differ from our own. It is psychologically harmful to reject and shun others, especially close family members such as a parent, sibling or child. That is my understanding of the Teachings of Jesus.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It is psychologically harmful to reject and shun others, especially close family members such as a parent, sibling or child.

It's another discussion, but sometimes it is necessary to do that.

 

[sojourner]

Leviticus 18:22...
“You shall not lie with a male as with a woman...”
No violence implied.

You’ve twisted the Scriptures, to support your own bias.
The Bible talks about that, you know.

Could be male rape. More likely a cultural taboo. In that culture, shame and honor were embedded in the sexes. Men embodied honor and women embodied shame. Men were also enjoined to treat each other honorably, and to act honorably. So, for sure man to treat an equal man as one would treat a woman was to treat that one with shame. For a man to bend over and “take it like a woman” was for a man to act shamefully. It had nothing to do with the inherent morality of the sex act, itself, but rather with identifying with shame. In our culture, where shame and honor are not identified in this way, the Levitican injunction becomes meaningless.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Could be male rape. More likely a cultural taboo. In that culture, shame and honor were embedded in the sexes. Men embodied honor and women embodied shame. Men were also enjoined to treat each other honorably, and to act honorably. So, for sure man to treat an equal man as one would treat a woman was to treat that one with shame. For a man to bend over and “take it like a woman” was for a man to act shamefully. It had nothing to do with the inherent morality of the sex act, itself, but rather with identifying with shame. In our culture, where shame and honor are not identified in this way, the Levitican injunction becomes meaningless.

For your reference...

Leviticus 18:22

Leviticus 20:13

Romans 1:27

1 Timothy 1:10

1 Corinthians 6:9

 

[sojourner]

For your reference...

Leviticus 18:22

Leviticus 20:13

Romans 1:27

1 Timothy 1:10

1 Corinthians 6:9

Again: I’m very familiar with the clobber texts. None of them specifically addresses living, consensual, committed relationships. None mentions homosexuality. Most of them can be attributed to the cultural issue cited above.



For your reference.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Again: I’m very familiar with the clobber texts. None of them specifically addresses living, consensual, committed relationships. None mentions homosexuality. Most of them can be attributed to the cultural issue cited above.



For your reference.

Click on 1 Corinthians 6:9

...men who practice homosexuality *

*The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts

 

[BilliardsBall]

But they weren’t homosexual acts, since the authors had no concept for sexual orientation. “Same sex act” and “homosexuality” are different animals.

I doubt you could belabor me with anything I haven’t already fully exegeted myself, professionally.

I would argue that our natural state is wholeness, and that we have broken ourselves. And according to the best scientific, medical, and psychological evidence we have, homosexuality isn’t a “broken state” that needs “fixing.” In fact, it’s been determined that reparative “therapy” is way more harmful than helpful.

I sincerely appreciate your desire to dispel myths and counsel hurting people, I do.

I would say a married man in prison who commits rape is bisexual, not straight--he has the ability to perform even though the act is one of rage in part. Does the Bible therefore laud or embrace bisexual behavior? It doe snot.

Conversion therapy--especially as practiced by lay leaders--is often harmful, yes. Restoration therapy for homosexuals who were sexually abused as children or had broken relationships with same sex parents and other imprinting--is wonderful, especially when led by the Holy Spirit, since God loves to heal, bless and cure.

 

[BilliardsBall]

But you've already admitted that you're fallible, so you could be wrong about the bible being inerrant. KO!!!!

Too easy.

Can you or I score 100 on a test despite being fallible? Of course we can, and the Bible withstands all types of tests regarding prescience, prophecy and scientific accuracy.

 

[sojourner]

Click on 1 Corinthians 6:9

...men who practice homosexuality *

*The two Greek terms translated by this phrase refer to the passive and active partners in consensual homosexual acts

No they don’t. They refer to pederasty.

 

[sojourner]

I sincerely appreciate your desire to dispel myths and counsel hurting people, I do.

I would say a married man in prison who commits rape is bisexual, not straight--he has the ability to perform even though the act is one of rage in part. Does the Bible therefore laud or embrace bisexual behavior? It doe snot.

Conversion therapy--especially as practiced by lay leaders--is often harmful, yes. Restoration therapy for homosexuals who were sexually abused as children or had broken relationships with same sex parents and other imprinting--is wonderful, especially when led by the Holy Spirit, since God loves to heal, bless and cure.

That’s not what statistics and experts claim.