Homosexuals, should we accept them, are they really homosexual?

[Nerthus]

We should love and accept God's gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgendered children exactly as God created them. Being gay, lesbian, bi, and transgendered reflects the beautiful diversity of God's creation. Homophobia has no place in the body in the Christ or in any religious tradition.

I wish more religious folk thought like you.

 

[gnomon]

In most cases, the pain each inflicts on the other is purely psychological as opposed to physical, though the most public examples of such are protests. Proposition 8 passage, for example, triggered an instance of unbridled anger by the "gay community". And besides that, as overtly crazy and irrational as fundamental religionists can be, one has to accept that other people's behavior can have an adverse effect on their psyche, and being crazy and irrational doesn't make the hurt any less painful. There are plenty of gays who overtly showcase their homosexuality in specific ways to specific people for the sole purpose of getting their goat. They're treated as gay patriots, but it's crazy to think that it progresses the "gay agenda". It is, if anything, an investment in a long-term rival.

The emotional harm inflicted is cyclical. A cycle of emotional violence. And with each repeated cycle, both sides figure out new ways to make the other wrong. The way to break the cycle is to accept the others' emotional grievances, not fight it. It is difficult to address in the case of fundamentalists, as this is often a deep-seated condition with an obscure source, so it's pretty easy to overwrite their case, but nonetheless it's there. In the end the implication is, of course, to address individual emotional grievances. Again, I'm not interested in taking sides, or keeping scores. I don't see a point. That is part of what I am trying to convey here.

So some religious believers do not get their deluded opinions validated.

Tough crap.

Telling people not to protest, tone it down or some other such nonsense because another group of people are having their mythology disrespected is never a good argument.

Is the idea of homosexual acceptance causing a rise in the suicide rate of children of fundamentalists? Were fundamentalists who were out holding up a bunch of stupid signs opposing Prop 8 not able to go home to their legally married spouses? Were fundamentalists being told they could not adopt children because they are second class citizens?

The fundamentalists have been doing all that to homosexuals.

So I say to hell with the fundies and their hurt feelings. The same goes for the non-fundie members of this forum who got their feelings hurt.

They still have one recourse to hurt feelings in this debate. And that's to wise up and grow up. If they refuse to do so and continue to feel emotionally hurt it's their own damned fault.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

TOR, what middle ground do you propose? Should queers stay in the closet, living a lie rather than step on oversensitive toes?

No. That is unacceptable, for sure. The trouble I have, of both parties, are the attempts at force-feeding the other their lifestyle choice. I do admit that this is more severe on the side of fundamentalists, but I can't deny that there are large numbers of GLBTs that utilize tactics that are completely counterproductive. Specifically, responding to aggression with aggression. As unpalatable as it may sound, one 'must' respond lovingly to aggressive behavior in order to reveal the futility and hurt that anti-GLBT sentiment does. Otherwise their aggressive behavior is, in their mind justified, because their erroneous views on human sexuality become reinforced through the "mirroring" process. Does that make any sense?

Seriously, the fundies' only "grievance" is our identity. We're not attacking them or trying to take away their rights, we just want to be allowed to live our lives in peace.

I totally understand that, but for some reason, they think that GLBT behavior is an attack on them. Why should they care otherwise? That's the sticky part. I feel that GLBT folks are in a unique position to walk the walk that fundamentalists simply can't. Or won't.

The fundamentalists have been doing all that to homosexuals.

So I say to hell with the fundies and their hurt feelings. The same goes for the non-fundie members of this forum who got their feelings hurt.

They still have one recourse to hurt feelings in this debate. And that's to wise up and grow up. If they refuse to do so and continue to feel emotionally hurt it's their own damned fault.

This is the attitude I'm talking about. Believe it or not.. it doesn't help to alienate oneself from others. This is empowering to fundamentalist behavior. Period.

 

[gnomon]

This is the attitude I'm talking about. Believe it or not.. it doesn't help to alienate oneself from others. This is empowering to fundamentalist behavior. Period.

Wrong.

The attitude you were talking about was that of LGBT community protesting for their rights.

According to you, in response to Storm, even those members of the LGBT community are wanting nothing more to live their lives like everyone else peacefully and you claim that is an attack on the fundamentalists.

So you won't even grant peaceful, non-threatening actions by members of the LGBT community. Homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice.

You leave them nothing.

So other than vague generalities can you actually show how those who stand up for the civil rights of homosexuals are causing pain to fundamentalists?

 

[Storm]

TOR, you didn't answer the question: what middle ground do you propose?

Also, while it is obviously preferable to take the moral highground, that can include righteous anger.

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

I'm going to stop right here. It has become devastatingly clear that I cannot properly convey what I'm thinking. What I am suggesting is a radical twist of thinking that the linearity of words simply cannot convey. It would be a miracle if I could manage them to do so. The replies to my posts show very clearly that I simply cannot get across what I am intending. By a long shot. I do apologize, that is my limitation, I suppose. Either that, or your unspoken assumptions are correct and I'm totally nuts.

 

[McBell]

I'm going to stop right here. It has become devastatingly clear that I cannot properly convey what I'm thinking. What I am suggesting is a radical twist of thinking that the linearity of words simply cannot convey. It would be a miracle if I could manage them to do so. The replies to my posts show very clearly that I simply cannot get across what I am intending. By a long shot. I do apologize, that is my limitation, I suppose. Either that, or your unspoken assumptions are correct and I'm totally nuts.

Fair enough.

 

[Autodidact]

No. That is unacceptable, for sure. The trouble I have, of both parties, are the attempts at force-feeding the other their lifestyle choice.

Yeah, all those gay people FORCING fundamentalist Christians to have gay sex! It has to stop!

I do admit that this is more severe on the side of fundamentalists, but I can't deny that there are large numbers of GLBTs that utilize tactics that are completely counterproductive. Specifically, responding to aggression with aggression.

I know, the bombings of churches, gay people rioting in the streets, mobs overrunning Evangelical meetings. It's not right! Gay people should use non-violent tactics, like parades, speaking out and talking to their neighbors.

As unpalatable as it may sound, one 'must' respond lovingly to aggressive behavior in order to reveal the futility and hurt that anti-GLBT sentiment does. Otherwise their aggressive behavior is, in their mind justified, because their erroneous views on human sexuality become reinforced through the "mirroring" process. Does that make any sense?

And in what way have gay people not been doing this, exactly?

I totally understand that, but for some reason, they think that GLBT behavior is an attack on them. Why should they care otherwise? That's the sticky part. I feel that GLBT folks are in a unique position to walk the walk that fundamentalists simply can't. Or won't.

They are.

This is the attitude I'm talking about. Believe it or not.. it doesn't help to alienate oneself from others. This is empowering to fundamentalist behavior. Period.

How on earth are gay people alienating themselves from others? They are doing the exact opposite, being honest and reaching out to their families, co-workers, neighbors and the public. It's one of the biggest and most successful non-violent civil-rights movements in history. What do you want, for gay people to shut up and go away?

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I'm going to stop right here

I would...

 

[gnomon]

I'm going to stop right here. It has become devastatingly clear that I cannot properly convey what I'm thinking. What I am suggesting is a radical twist of thinking that the linearity of words simply cannot convey. It would be a miracle if I could manage them to do so. The replies to my posts show very clearly that I simply cannot get across what I am intending. By a long shot. I do apologize, that is my limitation, I suppose. Either that, or your unspoken assumptions are correct and I'm totally nuts.

To be fair my criticism is that the use of "many" and "pain" are not conveying much information.

I understand something like "in your face" screaming is not conducive to any line of argument but I just don't see that as common from those who support civil rights for homosexuals. When weighing what homosexuals have endured from religious believers to that of what religious believers have endured from homosexuals I fail to find any valid comparison.

But maybe that isn't what you were talking about.

 

[Diederick]

So basically what the OP is supposed to tell us is that homosexuals are partly the cause of the violence against themselves, because they react to the wrong that is being done to them. You are suggesting that the best way to stop it is to do nothing and let the actions of the bad people fire back on them, somehow?

Though I see how this is suggested to work, I don't see it actually working. Not only is it an impossible thing to ask of the people of this world to do nothing while they are being attacked; doing nothing will also not achieve anything in the political process. It may not have occurred to you, but this is not just a social issue, there are countries where laws exist to discriminate based on sexual orientation. Stretching from banishment from certain privileges, to being criminalized and sentenced to death for not hiding well enough.

 

[tomato1236]

When I was a kid, and was picked on, I would just immediately punch the kid doing it, and they learned very quickly not to pick on me.

 

[Midnight Pete]

As a bi woman, I can tell you that this much is rank bull ****.

As for the rest, I won't tell you what to think. I will thank you, deeply, for recognizing both that too many religious folks do despise us, and that this is hypocritical.

Blessings
:rainbow1:

It is hypocritcal to despise your LGBT neighbour and then claim you love God. Jesus says in Matthew 25:40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’"

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

People on both sides of the God debate tend to insist that it's all or nothing when it comes to Scripture. I don't buy it.

Very wise.

If we did everything God has commanded in the OT and NT we would all live in absolute fear.

 

[McBell]

I just despise that they claim victim status and asked to be treated as a protective class.

An example please.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I just despise that they claim victim status and asked to be treated as a protective class.

Because they aren't harassed, discriminated against, beaten, and killed just for being gay?

I think God made it pretty clear on how he feels about fudge packing fagg@try.

And I'm pretty sure that Jesus wouldn't have worded it like that.

 

[DarkSun]

So, some of you may be aware of Leviticus 18 22: "[FONT=arial, helvetica]Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

So does that mean you are allowed to be homosexual as long as you don't practice your sexuality?

And because everyone is a sinner we should treat them no differently, but then the Catholic church despise homosexuals, but not people who cheat on husband/wife.

Also I was told that homosexuals are confused and don't really have sexual feelings towards there own sex, but it's actually quite common for animals to practice homosexuality too.

Discuss?
[/FONT]

Homosexuality, like any trait, is ultimately genetic.

Genetic models of homosexuality

I suggest people get over themselves and their own insecurities, we need to accept all people as equals regardless of what petty differences we see. Use of scripture is no reason to hate a minority of people who are harming no one. Belittling a minority and feeling superior just based on your sexual orientation is juvenile and pathetic - it's like an adult game of pick on the weird kid, and it disgusts me that some people haven't grown up at all since high school.

 

[DarkSun]

You could say the exact same thing for European-Americans.

Are you, are you really? Pretty sure? Apparently, you do not know anything about Jesus.

Poe.

 

[Primordial Annihilator]

I think God made it pretty clear on how he feels about fudge packing fagg@try. I personally, see no problems with homos, I just despise that they claim victim status and asked to be treated as a protective class. But what 2 people do behind closed doors is nobody's business but their own.

You have no idea how God feels about anything being little more than a worm with limbs.

No offence.

 

[Midnight Pete]

Compared to God, we are indeed like worms with limbs. But if we're all little more than worms with limbs, that means we're in the same boat. That means we're all equally pathetic before the glory of God.