How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[Twig pentagram]

facts

What facts?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

What facts?

Facts!? You can't handle the facts!!

 

[Rakhel]

Yes it is an evil world based on greed, dominance and cruelty, and Jews are not better, but they ought to be because of their past sufferings. instead they have become musters of inflicting suffering.

And here in lies the biggest problem with the rest of the world.
You are holding Israel to a higher standard than anyone else in the world.

One Palestinian dies and it's a massacre committed by the evil Israelis in their attempt to commit genocide, yet 16 Israelis die and it is a victory against the vicious Zionist oppressors.
Israelis get blamed for a Palestinian setting fire to his own sheep or olive garden. The world is claiming that Gazans are starving, with little trade being allowed into the strip, when, in fact, we have seen evidence to the contrary. Israel gets blamed for restricting the type of aid that goes into Gaza, yet people choose to ignore that Egypt is implying the same. Israel gets blamed for the lack of medical care the Palestinians are getting, yet again, people choose to ignore the fact that it was the PA that put this restriction on its' own people.

Right, Israel is the truly evil one.
My point:
If the Israelis must get past losing land they bought from the Ottomans, which was stolen from them between 1918-1929, then the Palestinians should get over losing the same land, that they stole from it's rightful owners ,when Israel took it back in 1967.

 

[England my lionheart]

He acts as though the Israeli children are really taught so much better.

Maybe someone will correct me if i'm wrong,in Israels School curriculum there is a "what to do in a Terrorist attack" in the Hamas how to become a Martyr

 

[England my lionheart]

What facts?

Historical facts of how Israel came into being as opposed to myths

 

[England my lionheart]

BTW Guys if i'm slow in replying i'm in the process of making an almost immaculate Curry

 

[Enoughie]

Maybe someone will correct me if i'm wrong,in Israels School curriculum there is a "what to do in a Terrorist attack" in the Hamas how to become a Martyr

Maybe. But you see, in Senedjem's view the two are equivalent. In his view what Israel does (whatever that may be) is pure evil, while what Palestinians do (whatever that may be) is a response to Israel's genocidal ambitions, so it is justifiable.

Also, please try to keep this thread fact-free. Senedjem believes ignoring facts and spreading false propaganda elevates the level of discussion.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[England my lionheart]

Mod Advisory,please address the OP and avoid personal or inflammatory posts,some have been deleted already.

 

[Debunker]

Auto, for what reason should any Palestinian leader be given to trust the other? I'm not arguing that a stalemate is helpful, but the degeneration of trust is evident in the actions of the other.

For example the Oslo Accords. Arafat so foolishly was dealing with Rabin and the most educated minds of Israel by his lonesome. While Arafat can be described in many ways, a studious intellectual of law and debate he was not.

This disastrous agreement ignored the most prevalent questions of the time such as the right to return, Eastern Jerusalem, and the encroaching settlements for an ambiguous "later point".

Partitioning are into A zones (under Palestinian control), B zones (under joint control, and C zones (under Israeli occupation), it resulted in undermining the UN resolutions of 242 and its kin.

Israel refused to withdraw from their occupied zones and the Arab world condemned Arafat;s decision to rule as the despot of 22% of what would have been Palestine.


Of the times that Iran has threatened war how many times has it carried through with its rhetoric?

It has been the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who have weakened over time. Whose legitimate claims to territory, East Jerusalem, and an independent state have been trampled on.

As time passes by so does the time frame for an independent Palestine, perhaps Abbass will skip these indirect talks that Washington always insists on holding and appeal to the U.N for recognition. (You turned down the UN in 1948. Why should it hear you now?)

There are many Palestinians, driven by 60% unemployment in places like Gaza, to seek work in Israel and are routinely killed in their attempts to illegally enter the country.


When the airstrikes come and kill one Hammas leader at the expense of nine civilians and an apartment complex and are hailed in Israel as a great success what would they do?

When the concrete needed to rebuild the infrastructure that has been bombed repeatedly by American made fighters is not available because of the blockade who should they blame?

When settlers continue to evict Palestinians, destroy ancestral homes a hundred years old, and rip through olive trees that are the only source of revenue to who should they complain? (Try complaining to Hamas or the Muslim world who continue to use Palestine as propaganda.)

Israel's activities result in direct harm of the Palestinian people and their livelihoods. They do not even have livelihoods! Local leaders need not do anything, the animosity is already there.

Nonsense, there is no inborn animosity towards Jews. I regard my Jewish friends as brothers who truly do worship the same God.

There is a history of leaders both opposing and embracing Jews throughout history.

Examples that would counter "historic animosity" would be

the Moorish conquest of Spain that provided a cultural renaissance for the Jews. While not up to par with modern standards of equality, it was for the time unfounded freedom of all sects .

Then there are the Albanians and others who sheltered Jews during the Holocaust, a link to a document that I'll provide below.

Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth - View Single Post - Exhibition on Albanian Muslims Who Sheltered Jews during WWII



While this definitely takes into the account of the fanatical settlers who are a serious problem to peace, a large chunk of Israelis are secular.

This a good peace and we can see why it is prised so highly on this thread. So let's look at it to see what it is really saying.
First, after 7 defensive wars the writer points out the atmosphere of trust was not in Oslo accord. Well, if there was anybodies responsibility to create trust, was the Muslims who were not willing to say that Israel had a right to exist.

It was not Israel's fault that the Palestinians had a fool as a negotiant at Oslo. Arafat had the support of Muslims worldwide because he was dedicated to the destruction of Israel.

The writer says: "

This disastrous agreement ignored the most prevalent questions of the time such as the right to return, Eastern Jerusalem, and the encroaching settlements for an ambiguous "later point".

This simply no true. The number one concern of Israel was, as it has always been, was will the surrender of territory keep Israel secure. If not, you should have nothing was Israel's position. The idea that the Jews should be allowed to live in peace was not acceptable to the Muslims.

In the ears of an Israeli what you say next only assures him of you true intention. You want to be powerful enough to make war again.

 It was truly pathetic to see how the Palestinian side was reduced to arguing merely for a halt to settlements and greater autonomy. Requests like controlling "terrorists" in their border while simultaneously demand a "smaller police force" and bombing police stations is incredulous.

Next,

Of the times that Iran has threatened war how many times has it carried through with its rhetoric?

Does anybody on this forum believe that Iran is not continually stirring flames and supplying arms to Gaza and Hamas to make war on Israel? The author here relies on the ignorance of the readers to make his point.

Next,

It has been the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who have weakened over time. Whose legitimate claims to territory, East Jerusalem, and an independent state have been trampled on.

Your claims are not legitimate! Palestine gave up its claims in 1948 when it chose war over peace.

Next,

There are many Palestinians, driven by 60% unemployment in places like Gaza, to seek work in Israel and are routinely killed in their attempts to illegally enter the country.

It is simple. A people can make jobs or it can make war. It is not Israel's fault that the Palestinians do not have employment. Look what Israel has done with a waste land. Palestinians could have done the same if they had a work ethic instead of a war ethic.
Next,

There are many Palestinians, driven by 60% unemployment in places like Gaza, to seek work in Israel and are routinely killed in their attempts to illegally enter the country.

How strange! Have you ever apologized for Muslims killing thousands at one time, all innocent citizen in terrorist attacks. That is not an issue to you, is it?
You do point out that these are terrorist attempting to enter the country illegally.

Next,

When the airstrikes come and kill one Hammas leader at the expense of nine civilians and an apartment complex and are hailed in Israel as a great success what would they do?

The Palestinians voted Hamas into power rand Hamas continued to do what it was voted in to do. Palestinians voted for war and now and then they get it.Again, it is not Israel's fault. I know you are seeking sympathy but all I can think about is the millions of Muslims that danced in the streets all over the Mid East when the Twine Towers fell on 9/11.

Next,

When the airstrikes come and kill one Hammas leader at the expense of nine civilians and an apartment complex and are hailed in Israel as a great success what would they do?

Use reasoning here. They chose war. they have only the Muslim hate for Jews and the USA to blame. The Palestinians chose Hamas so they must live with it.
Next,

Israel's activities result in direct harm of the Palestinian people and their livelihoods. They do not even have livelihoods! Local leaders need not do anything, the animosity is already there.

Well, the animosity is mis directed as Hamas and the Muslins want it to be. Animosity towards Israel is what the leaders want and the good of the Palestinians can be hung.

Well, when put into truthful perspective the response of Abibi is nothing more than an attempt to stir up hatred for Jews and the USA.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Maybe. But you see, in Senedjem's view the two are equivalent. In his view what Israel does (whatever that may be) is pure evil, while what Palestinians do (whatever that may be) is a response to Israel's genocidal ambitions, so it is justifiable.

Also, please try to keep this thread fact-free. Senedjem believes ignoring facts and spreading false propaganda elevates the level of discussion.

No I didn't say anything Palestine does is justifiable either. Please don't misquote me. So you need to get your FACTS straight.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Personally, I don't think that Israel needs justification for its state.

If the Arabs had won the 1948 war (or maybe a few others), there would be no moaning and griping about it (from the Arabs). When you lose a war, especially when you instigate it, the winners get the spoils.

The Arabs found out that Israel was strong and got their balls handed back to them.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

From a secular Jewish perspective Israel needs no justification. Secular Jews could careless about what Judaism says. I think they could treat the Palestinians better though. For religious Jews, Israel has no justification, Maimonides clearly said one of the oaths of a Jew is not to establish a nation without the messiah. This is why I don't get the religious Jews who support Israel. This is very clear.

 

[Revoltingest]

Personally, I don't think that Israel needs justification for its state.
If the Arabs had won the 1948 war (or maybe a few others), there would be no moaning and griping about it (from the Arabs). When you lose a war, especially when you instigate it, the winners get the spoils.
The Arabs found out that Israel was strong and got their balls handed back to them.

So if Israel's foes get their act together, defeat Israel, & subsume it....will that then be equally just?

 

[Starsoul]

This is the most illogical analyses of the Jewish/Arab situation I have heard to date. It would be equally true to say that it boiled down to the Muslims efforts to dominate the Mid Eastern world. Why do you blame the West for the trouble of Mid Eastern people while it is so obvious the Eastern world of Islam has made very few contributions to the growth of a sophisticated civilization? It is a lie and ignores all the facts presented on this thread to blame the West for self centered behavior when nothing is said of the atrocities the Mid Eastern counties have brought upon their own people in the name of religion.

The people on this forum are too smart to fall for the illogic which some of you use against the Jews, and many of them are not even religious. It is obvious that the OP did not expect the reasoning that would come forth on this thread. You and he are dumbfounded by the response you have received Give it up. The majority of reasoning people can see through your hate and animosity for Israel and the USA.

Correct me if I am wrong, you say, but that is not possible because you do not follow truth and reason. Tpp many facts of history have been presented here and you continually twist these fact in your mind. History is what it is and it is too late to rewrite it here.

People on this forum aren't so fond of arrogant high headedness either, which pardon me , your posts seem to drip of excessively.

There have been many alliances between the Jews and the Muslims at the time of the Last Prophet and Long after Him too. Some tribes of Jews had voluntarily Vowed to fight along with the Muslims, Muslims have fought several wars alongside the Jews helping them, so the ancient hate thing projected between them based on religion is a load of nonsense, specifically when fabricated to be from the Muslim side.

 

[Rakhel]

From a secular Jewish perspective Israel needs no justification. Secular Jews could careless about what Judaism says. I think they could treat the Palestinians better though. For religious Jews, Israel has no justification, Maimonides clearly said one of the oaths of a Jew is not to establish a nation without the messiah. This is why I don't get the religious Jews who support Israel. This is very clear.

In Ketuboth 111, where Maimonides was said to take the oaths from it also says

That text is required for [an exposition] like that of R. Levi who stated: 'What was the purpose of those six adjurations?12 — Three for the purposes just mentioned and the others, that [the prophets] shall not make known the end,13 that [the people] shall not14 delay15 the end,13 and that they shall not reveal the secret16 to the idolaters'.

Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 111

It was from this verse
Song of Songs
2: 7. I adjure you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by the gazelles or by the hinds of the field, that you neither awaken nor arouse the love while it is desirous.

Ketuboth 111 says do not come as a wall(haven't seen it happen.(There are sill just as many Jews in NYC, if not more than, as there are in Jerusalem.) But it also says that the prophets shall not know when the exile will end and that the people shall not delay the end.
Our exile from Israel may very well be over. It may not be. We do not know. We could be imposing our own exile and it might end when we realize this fact.
When we desire to go home. Not before. Not after.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

So if Israel's foes get their act together, defeat Israel, & subsume it....will that then be equally just?

Note that I said that Israel didn't need justification. That doesn't mean that everything they did was just.

 

[Enoughie]

No I didn't say anything Palestine does is justifiable either.

If you want me to stop saying that you're lying, you should stop lying. Direct quote:

The Palestinians call for Jewish genocide after having genocide done to them first.

Is this not saying that Palestinians are justified in calling for a genocide on Jews?

Please don't misquote me.

I'm not misquoting you. I'm quoting exactly what you said.

So you need to get your FACTS straight.

:biglaugh:

I need to get my facts straight?!

Your accusations of a genocide and other heinous crimes allegedly perpetrated by Israel were all baseless. You have not provided even one shred of evidence to support this vile and hateful propaganda.

You said that Israeli tanks purposefully killed Palestinian children who were throwing rocks at them. Show us the sources for these fictitious claims!!

Until you do - until you show you can be an honest debater - I see no point in continuing with this farce.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Revoltingest]

Note that I said that Israel didn't need justification. That doesn't mean that everything they did was just.

You were clear, but I thought the question would be useful to ask anyway.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

If you want me to stop saying that you're lying, you should stop lying. Direct quote:



Is this not saying that Palestinians are justified in calling for a genocide on Jews?



I'm not misquoting you. I'm quoting exactly what you said.


:biglaugh:

I need to get my facts straight?!

Your accusations of a genocide and other heinous crimes allegedly perpetrated by Israel were all baseless. You have not provided even one shred of evidence to support this vile and hateful propaganda.

You said that Israeli tanks purposefully killed Palestinian children who were throwing rocks at them. Show us the sources for these fictitious claims!!

Until you do - until you show you can be an honest debater - I see no point in continuing with this farce.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

Enoughie- Ignored

 

[Enoughie]

Enoughie- Ignored

Beautiful. And just what I expected. You see, when I said:

please try to keep this thread fact-free. Senedjem believes ignoring facts and spreading false propaganda elevates the level of discussion.

I considered that as just his general attitude toward the subject. But now you all clearly see that ignoring facts (and the people who present them) is actually a matter of policy with Senedjem.

It is also his policy never to provide any evidence for his vile and hateful propaganda.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma