How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[free spirit]

Same reason a 10th generation Russian can live in Australia

lionheart
With answers like that, for me it is time to go.
Originally Posted by free spirit
Well this tread has become a political debate and I must op out of it because I believe that politically the chinese have the right to do what they like to Tibet.
And that India politically has the right to do what they like to Cashemer.
and politically the Israely have the right to do what they like in palestine.
You do not have to have much of a brain to know why, they have the biger gun thats why.
So I believe we cannot mix politics with spirituality and come out smiling, for mixing the two you will create pure evil, the Devil incarnated. :angel2:
Once the pope was such a man. at present some muslims are working hard to be that man and the Israely are on their heels.:sad:

 

[England my lionheart]

lionheart
With answers like that, for me it is time to go.
Originally Posted by free spirit
Well this tread has become a political debate and I must op out of it because I believe that politically the chinese have the right to do what they like to Tibet.
And that India politically has the right to do what they like to Cashemer.
and politically the Israely have the right to do what they like in palestine.
You do not have to have much of a brain to know why, they have the biger gun thats why.
So I believe we cannot mix politics with spirituality and come out smiling, for mixing the two you will create pure evil, the Devil incarnated. :angel2:
Once the pope was such a man. at present some muslims are working hard to be that man and the Israely are on their heels.:sad:

Well if you have nothing to rebuke what i've posted maybe so,however i recomend that you read the Hamas Charter and even the Fatah Charter as i feel sure it would give you a better understanding.

 

[England my lionheart]

I love God's Jewish children and I love Jewish tradition but I strongly disagree with Zionism. Israel maybe a Israeli state but it is not a Jewish state. Jewish tradition makes it very clear that they are to welcome foreigners into their midst including God's Palestinian children. They have forgotten that God's Jewish children were at one time strangers in a weird land and that they had once born the injustice of slavery and oppression. Abraham's Tent was said to be open to all God's children no matter in what direction they were coming from. They have neglected the spirit of the prophets including Jeremiah, Amos, and Micah. The Lord in scripture says- I am the Lord your God who delivered you out of the house of slavery in Egypt you shall have no other Gods beside me. God makes it clear that there is to be no other God than the God of justice and liberation. Yes it is sad the injustices that God's Jewish children have suffered including the Holocaust but that doesn't give them a justification for oppressing the Palestinians . I am a strong advocate of the two state system with recognition of all holy sites.

Seems your God forgot to mention the Hamas Charter,maybe you should read it as i'm sure you will find more answers in it that some ancient texts

 

[free spirit]

Well if you have nothing to rebuke what i've posted maybe so,however i recomend that you read the Hamas Charter and even the Fatah Charter as i feel sure it would give you a better understanding.

lionheart,
you fail to see that these charters that proclaim hate for the Jews were written after the Jews took their land, therefore they are a response to their tragedy, would you passively let your country be taken over. If you say yes to this you are not British

 

[free spirit]

I love God's Jewish children and I love Jewish tradition but I strongly disagree with Zionism. Israel maybe a Israeli state but it is not a Jewish state. Jewish tradition makes it very clear that they are to welcome foreigners into their midst including God's Palestinian children. They have forgotten that God's Jewish children were at one time strangers in a weird land and that they had once born the injustice of slavery and oppression. Abraham's Tent was said to be open to all God's children no matter in what direction they were coming from. They have neglected the spirit of the prophets including Jeremiah, Amos, and Micah. The Lord in scripture says- I am the Lord your God who delivered you out of the house of slavery in Egypt you shall have no other Gods beside me. God makes it clear that there is to be no other God than the God of justice and liberation. Yes it is sad the injustices that God's Jewish children have suffered including the Holocaust but that doesn't give them a justification for oppressing the Palestinians . I am a strong advocate of the two state system with recognition of all holy sites.

SAGE,
Were can I get more information of what you believe? Please

 

[Rainbow Mage]

That's what they think Free Spirit. They think the Palestinians should just shut up and take their medicine. How dare they get in the way of god's special chosen people

 

[Caladan]

I highly suggest reading the entire thread. It has a lot of great information that I don't think many people are generally aware of.

One point that I want to point out is that Israel is not meant to be a religious state. Yes, they are Jewish, but that does not mean they follow Judaism.

It seems a really simple equation. if Jews are 'religious' than they have an evil religious agenda which includes their sinister claims that Israel belongs to them by divine mandate, and that they are racists for having an ethos of 'God's chosen people'. now, if they are not 'religious', then they are unspiritual atheists with no moral claim to a state, godless people who are abandoned by a god.
doesn't leave much choice for the Jews, does it? you are going to be demonized if you are a 'believer' for being a believer, and you are going to be demonized if you are secular for being a godless atheist with dark political agendas.
the truth is much more interesting though. many Jews in the modern era have developed tremendous flexibility when it comes to Jewish tradition. many Jews do not follow a 'religion', they express their heritage and Jewish tradition in a moderate non dogmatic way. which means they are uninterested by religious regulations for the most part, or none at all, and instead celebrate Jewish tradition and heritage in a bonding way, with their families, friends, or by studying Jewish literature and history.
Its interesting how some will will accuse Jews of being godless communists, others will accuse Jews of having a dark religion, others will accuse Jews of being too secular and perhaps atheistic, others will blame Jews for being too liberal, others for being responsible for military woes, for being too leftist, for having a strong right wing lobby. it is amazing how all these things apply according to convenience.

 

[darkendless]

That's what they think Free Spirit. They think the Palestinians should just shut up and take their medicine. How dare they get in the way of god's special chosen people

If jews are in the wrong what does one propose? Should they get up and leave the land to the Palestinians who rihtfully own it

 

[England my lionheart]

lionheart,
you fail to see that these charters that proclaim hate for the Jews were written after the Jews took their land, therefore they are a response to their tragedy, would you passively let your country be taken over. If you say yes to this you are not British

Wrong,the Charter has its root in Egypt way before Israel became a state,in fact it has its roots in the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood ideology,you are not doing very well are you.

 

[England my lionheart]

That's what they think Free Spirit. They think the Palestinians should just shut up and take their medicine. How dare they get in the way of god's special chosen people

What we really think is perhaps you could come up with some proof for the accusations you've been making,BTW the religious card doesn't apply here.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

If jews are in the wrong what does one propose? Should they get up and leave the land to the Palestinians who rihtfully own it

Not necessarily. I said a two-state resolution seems good to me

 

[Rakhel]

A two state solution will never be accepted by the Palestinian government. I don't know why people don't want to believe this. The land will never be big enough. Even if the whole Jerusalem is given, it will never be enough.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

A two state solution will never be accepted by the Palestinian government. I don't know why people don't want to believe this. The land will never be big enough. Even if the whole Jerusalem is given, it will never be enough.

Do Palestinians want the whole world?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

A two state solution will never be accepted by the Palestinian government. I don't know why people don't want to believe this. The land will never be big enough. Even if the whole Jerusalem is given, it will never be enough.

We won't know if we don't try. Look at it this way Rakhel- Israel is far more powerful then the Palestinians, even with their own state, so politically speaking they have nothing to lose. Also, if Israel agrees and then Palestine messes it up it would clear Israel in the eyes of most of the world. I'd be willing to admit then that Israel is right if they actually attempt a two-state resolution and the Palestinians mess it up. I swear, I would then recant every bad thing I ever said.

 

[Revoltingest]

A two state solution will never be accepted by the Palestinian government.

As long as Israelis believe that, it will be true.

 

[England my lionheart]

As people seem to ignore the Charter i thought i would show why any peace initiative is a huge hurdle to negotiate:

"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

PS are they really silly enough to believe the Protocols of Zion
​

 

[Rakhel]

I don't even know why I try.

 

[England my lionheart]

I doubt that even if i posted the whole of the Charter where it clearly states there can be no peace and no intention of a peaceful outome ever people would still blame Israel

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

 

[England my lionheart]

Here's some more Guys,anyone want to try and negotiate

Part III - Strategies and Methods
Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. This [norm] has prevailed since the commanders of the Muslim armies completed the conquest of Syria and Iraq, and they asked the Caliph of Muslims, ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, for his view of the conquered land, whether it should be partitioned between the troops or left in the possession of its population, or otherwise. Following discussions and consultations between the Caliph of Islam, ‘Umar Ibn al-Khattab, and the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, be peace and prayer upon him, they decided that the land should remain in the hands of its owners to benefit from it and from its wealth; but the control of the land and the land itself ought to be endowed as a Waqf [in perpetuity] for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection. The ownership of the land by its owners is only one of usufruct, and this Waqf will endure as long as Heaven and earth last. Any demarche in violation of this law of Islam, with regard to Palestine, is baseless and reflects on its perpetrators.

 

[Rakhel]

We won't know if we don't try. Look at it this way Rakhel- Israel is far more powerful then the Palestinians, even with their own state, so politically speaking they have nothing to lose. Also, if Israel agrees and then Palestine messes it up it would clear Israel in the eyes of most of the world. I'd be willing to admit then that Israel is right if they actually attempt a two-state resolution and the Palestinians mess it up. I swear, I would then recant every bad thing I ever said.

I believe people said the same thing before Israel pulled out of Gaza. "Just give them Gaza and they will will be happy." But, somehow, it is still Israel's fault that the Palestinians messed up. I don't see many people eating their words right now. In fact all I see is "well if you give them more..."

You are treating them like spoiled children.