How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[Enoughie]

So why form a Jewish state

Because Jews are a nation, so they form a Jewish state. Why form a Palestinian state?

Moses was a Jew he recorded those events,

That is not a fact. There are no evidence to corroborate this claim outside of the O.T. itself.

if they were fabricated myths that is one more reason for abolishing the state of Israel.

This is ridiculous.

What religious text supports the existence of Australia? None. So let's abolish Australia!

Whether the O.T. is true or myth is irrelevant to the existence of the state of Israel.

It is a fact that historically Jews had sovereignty in the land of Palestine, and were expelled from it. This history emotionally connects the Jewish people to that land, and that it why they decided to return to it and establish a state there (after they could no longer tolerate the persecution they underwent in Europe).

Yes I believe 1/4 of a million were killed, but there was nothing to destroy, aborigeny did not have even a village, But I arrived 45 years ago therefore I am no guilty but a litle enbarrassed because I am a beneficiary of their evil dids. Our PM recently said sorry to them. What can I do.

Oh, well, if he said sorry than it's alright.

You're a shameless hypocrite. You hold today's Jews responsible for events that allegedly took place 3500 years ago, yet you feel no guilt for the killing and theft that brought about the country you live in, and the fruits of which you're enjoying today.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Enoughie]

At present today the Palestinians people are suffering for the comfort of the Jews, today that is not right.
It is not too late to make them part of your nation with equal rights stop this cicle of hate, recognise that you are the intruder, therefore is up to you to make peace or get out of other people house.

What about the 1,000,000 Jews who were forced out of Arab countries?!

What about their territories that were confiscated (totaling in size about 3X the state of Israel)? Who will get out of their houses?! What Arab government would recognize that it is an intruder there?!

Or maybe you think justice should only apply to non-Jews?

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Enoughie]

So why they need to be there.

If you genuinely want to know why, it is because:

1) they had their historic homeland there, so they had an emotional connection to that land.
2) they were legally acquiring lands in Palestine
3) they had absolutely no intention of harming the Palestinian population there
4) they were given (under international agreement) a mandate to establish a national homeland in Palestine (in 1917)
5) if you want more information about this you can read my post at the beginning of the thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/2299240-post2.html

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Autodidact]

You are not human, or you consider the Jews to be super human the "chosen people of God" because you ignor the fondamental birthright of a people, and natural justice. Since the Jews come out of Egypt they have entered the promise land with the sole intention to steal, destroy and kill the people there, I see that after 4000 years nothing has changed.

Are you an aboriginal Australian?

 

[Autodidact]

Not necessarily. I said a two-state resolution seems good to me

Maybe I asked you this already? Do you think the Palestinians screwed up by refusing to accept this when it was offered to them in 1947?

 

[Autodidact]

A two state solution will never be accepted by the Palestinian government. I don't know why people don't want to believe this. The land will never be big enough. Even if the whole Jerusalem is given, it will never be enough.

I can only hope that at some point they will accept reality.

 

[Autodidact]

Do Palestinians want the whole world?

I believe that (many) Muslims do.

 

[Autodidact]

We won't know if we don't try. Look at it this way Rakhel- Israel is far more powerful then the Palestinians, even with their own state, so politically speaking they have nothing to lose. Also, if Israel agrees and then Palestine messes it up it would clear Israel in the eyes of most of the world. I'd be willing to admit then that Israel is right if they actually attempt a two-state resolution and the Palestinians mess it up. I swear, I would then recant every bad thing I ever said.

Israel's fear is that any land under Palestinian control will be used as a base from which to launch attacks on Israel. Again, this has been the historical pattern.

 

[Autodidact]

They are everywere, And they were in larger numbers in other places, So why there?

The hope was that in a Jewish nation, a Jewish holocaust could not take place, and if another nation embarks on a Jewish holocaust, Jews would have a place to seek refuge. Neither of these things existed in 1939, with the result that millions of Jews were slaughtered.

 

[Autodidact]

I have read the thread, I have found a lot of politics, history, and resentements, averyone turning the story to justify himself.
Did I miss anything? By that I meant
Why a ten generation Russian who follow the jewish religion has a right to live in Palestine to the deprivation of the natives.

Where do you live?

 

[Autodidact]

lionheart,
you fail to see that these charters that proclaim hate for the Jews were written after the Jews took their land, therefore they are a response to their tragedy, would you passively let your country be taken over. If you say yes to this you are not British

The Jews didn't take their land, the Ottomans did. The British took it from the Ottomans. All of that happened a long time ago. Jews legally immigrated and bought land. Since local Palestianians objected to sharing the land with these legal immigrants (and for some other reasons) the British authorities agreed to divide the land between the two groups. This was rejected by the Palestinians, who insisted on keeping all the land for themselves. This would have resulted in thousands of people, who had legally bought their land, many of them generations earlier, being kicked out.

What do you suggest should have happened?

 

[Autodidact]

Not necessarily. I said a two-state resolution seems good to me

O.K., it sounds like you think the people at fault here are the Palestinians, which is the only group who rejected your solution in favor of war, and who still reject it. The people in the way of your solution are the Palestinians, not the Israelis.

 

[Autodidact]

Do Palestinians want the whole world?

They want the whole of Israel.

 

[Autodidact]

We won't know if we don't try. Look at it this way Rakhel- Israel is far more powerful then the Palestinians, even with their own state, so politically speaking they have nothing to lose. Also, if Israel agrees and then Palestine messes it up it would clear Israel in the eyes of most of the world. I'd be willing to admit then that Israel is right if they actually attempt a two-state resolution and the Palestinians mess it up. I swear, I would then recant every bad thing I ever said.

The Palestinians won't try. How can Israel do this unilaterally? It would be suicide.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

They want the whole of Israel.

For Israel, it may as well be the whole world.

 

[Revoltingest]

They want the whole of Israel.

Even if that could be known & were true, what people want can be altered. I've done a lot of negotiation, often with hostile contractors,
tenants, owners & lenders...& I've discovered that nothing is cast in concrete. In order to avoid catastrophic conflict, it seems best to
take some risks, give up some ground, & get what's really needed to change people's motives & attitudes. I've no expertise in politics,
but I just figger that people is people.

 

[Rakhel]

Even if that could be known & were true, what people want can be altered. I've done a lot of negotiation, often with hostile contractors, tenants, owners & lenders...& I've discovered that nothing is cast in concrete. In order to avoid catastrophic conflict, it seems best to take some risks, give up some ground, & get what's really needed to change people's motives & attitudes.

How many more risks do you think they should take?
Exactly how much ground do you think the Israelis should give up?
And do you think they should get something in return?

 

[Autodidact]

Even if that could be known & were true, what people want can be altered. I've done a lot of negotiation, often with hostile contractors, tenants, owners & lenders...& I've discovered that nothing is cast in concrete. In order to avoid catastrophic conflict, it seems best to take some risks, give up some ground, & get what's really needed to change people's motives & attitudes.

Well, it is true and known, see the charter of the organizations(s) they have chosen to govern and represent them.

I hope it can be changed.

Unfortunately, as you can see from the charter, once you add religion to the situation, it becomes much more intractable. It becomes a battle of absolutes in which giving ground is seen as violating God's will.

btw, there are people on the Israeli side with the symetrically same attitude toward the Palestinians. However, at this time they are a small minority and are not in power. (However, due to Israel's parliamentary system, they often wield power outweighing their actual numbers.) In other words, Israel is much more secular than Palestine, ironically.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

How many more risks do you think they should take?
Exactly how much ground do you think the Israelis should give up?
And do you think they should get something in return?

Peace sounds good.

What else do the Palestinians have to give?

 

[Rakhel]

that was promised when Israel pulled out of Gaza. And if I recall, it was the Palestinians that renigged on the treaty first. Israel turned a blind eye to the rockets raining down on them for 5 years before reacting.
Try again.