How are Jews justified in creating the state of Israel?

[Bismillah]

I think one of the main problems is trust; neither side trusts each other. Each side thinks the other side is out to destroy it.

Auto, for what reason should any Palestinian leader be given to trust the other? I'm not arguing that a stalemate is helpful, but the degeneration of trust is evident in the actions of the other.

For example the Oslo Accords. Arafat so foolishly was dealing with Rabin and the most educated minds of Israel by his lonesome. While Arafat can be described in many ways, a studious intellectual of law and debate he was not.

This disastrous agreement ignored the most prevalent questions of the time such as the right to return, Eastern Jerusalem, and the encroaching settlements for an ambiguous "later point".

Partitioning are into A zones (under Palestinian control), B zones (under joint control, and C zones (under Israeli occupation), it resulted in undermining the UN resolutions of 242 and its kin.

Israel refused to withdraw from their occupied zones and the Arab world condemned Arafat;s decision to rule as the despot of 22% of what would have been Palestine.

It was truly pathetic to see how the Palestinian side was reduced to arguing merely for a halt to settlements and greater autonomy. Requests like controlling "terrorists" in their border while simultaneously demand a "smaller police force" and bombing police stations is incredulous.

I have to say, in the case of Israel, this is substantiated. The other side says so on a regular basis, and has taken actions consistent with it. So it's hard for Israel to justify trusting them, and following the direction of peace.

Of the times that Iran has threatened war how many times has it carried through with its rhetoric?

It has been the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who have weakened over time. Whose legitimate claims to territory, East Jerusalem, and an independent state have been trampled on.

As time passes by so does the time frame for an independent Palestine, perhaps Abbass will skip these indirect talks that Washington always insists on holding and appeal to the U.N for recognition.

This is unfortunate, as it would benefit everyone in the area, especially the many Palestinians who benefit from working in the Israeli economy, one of the healthiest in the region.

There are many Palestinians, driven by 60% unemployment in places like Gaza, to seek work in Israel and are routinely killed in their attempts to illegally enter the country.

However, regional leaders prefer to use Israel as a scapegoat to whip their citizens into a hostile frenzy of support for them.

When the airstrikes come and kill one Hammas leader at the expense of nine civilians and an apartment complex and are hailed in Israel as a great success what would they do?

When the concrete needed to rebuild the infrastructure that has been bombed repeatedly by American made fighters is not available because of the blockade who should they blame?

When settlers continue to evict Palestinians, destroy ancestral homes a hundred years old, and rip through olive trees that are the only source of revenue to who should they complain?

Israel's activities result in direct harm of the Palestinian people and their livelihoods. They do not even have livelihoods! Local leaders need not do anything, the animosity is already there.

This is aggravated by the historic animosity of Muslims toward the Jews for rejecting Muhammad as a prophet. Most unfortunately, this animosity is symbolized and played out in geography. The True Religion gets to control the holy shrines.

Nonsense, there is no inborn animosity towards Jews. I regard my Jewish friends as brothers who truly do worship the same God.

There is a history of leaders both opposing and embracing Jews throughout history.

Examples that would counter "historic animosity" would be

the Moorish conquest of Spain that provided a cultural renaissance for the Jews. While not up to par with modern standards of equality, it was for the time unfounded freedom of all sects .

Then there are the Albanians and others who sheltered Jews during the Holocaust, a link to a document that I'll provide below.

Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth - View Single Post - Exhibition on Albanian Muslims Who Sheltered Jews during WWII

It doesn't help that religious Jews see Israel as divinely "theirs."

While this definitely takes into the account of the fanatical settlers who are a serious problem to peace, a large chunk of Israelis are secular.

 

[gnomon]

Auto, for what reason should any Palestinian leader be given to trust the other? I'm not arguing that a stalemate is helpful, but the degeneration of trust is evident in the actions of the other.

For example the Oslo Accords. Arafat so foolishly was dealing with Rabin and the most educated minds of Israel by his lonesome. While Arafat can be described in many ways, a studious intellectual of law and debate he was not.

This disastrous agreement ignored the most prevalent questions of the time such as the right to return, Eastern Jerusalem, and the encroaching settlements for an ambiguous "later point".

Partitioning are into A zones (under Palestinian control), B zones (under joint control, and C zones (under Israeli occupation), it resulted in undermining the UN resolutions of 242 and its kin.

Israel refused to withdraw from their occupied zones and the Arab world condemned Arafat;s decision to rule as the despot of 22% of what would have been Palestine.

It was truly pathetic to see how the Palestinian side was reduced to arguing merely for a halt to settlements and greater autonomy. Requests like controlling "terrorists" in their border while simultaneously demand a "smaller police force" and bombing police stations is incredulous.



Of the times that Iran has threatened war how many times has it carried through with its rhetoric?

It has been the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who have weakened over time. Whose legitimate claims to territory, East Jerusalem, and an independent state have been trampled on.

As time passes by so does the time frame for an independent Palestine, perhaps Abbass will skip these indirect talks that Washington always insists on holding and appeal to the U.N for recognition.



There are many Palestinians, driven by 60% unemployment in places like Gaza, to seek work in Israel and are routinely killed in their attempts to illegally enter the country.



When the airstrikes come and kill one Hammas leader at the expense of nine civilians and an apartment complex and are hailed in Israel as a great success what would they do?

When the concrete needed to rebuild the infrastructure that has been bombed repeatedly by American made fighters is not available because of the blockade who should they blame?

When settlers continue to evict Palestinians, destroy ancestral homes a hundred years old, and rip through olive trees that are the only source of revenue to who should they complain?

Israel's activities result in direct harm of the Palestinian people and their livelihoods. They do not even have livelihoods! Local leaders need not do anything, the animosity is already there.



Nonsense, there is no inborn animosity towards Jews. I regard my Jewish friends as brothers who truly do worship the same God.

There is a history of leaders both opposing and embracing Jews throughout history.

Examples that would counter "historic animosity" would be

the Moorish conquest of Spain that provided a cultural renaissance for the Jews. While not up to par with modern standards of equality, it was for the time unfounded freedom of all sects .

Then there are the Albanians and others who sheltered Jews during the Holocaust, a link to a document that I'll provide below.

Multaqa Ahl al-Hadeeth - View Single Post - Exhibition on Albanian Muslims Who Sheltered Jews during WWII



While this definitely takes into the account of the fanatical settlers who are a serious problem to peace, a large chunk of Israelis are secular.

Good post.

I'll shut up now.

 

[Bismillah]

never mind

 

[Enoughie]

First, I think it would be great to hear other points of views about the Arab-Israeli conflict from the start of Zionism (1890s) to 1948.

Second, here's another question that people might want to address in regard to the Arab-Israeli conflict, that is integral to this discussion:

How are Arab countries (including Morocco, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Syria) justified in ethnically cleansing about 1,000,000 Jews (that lived in those counties for many centuries) from their territories, and confiscating lands that are about 3 times the size of the state of Israel, during the time of Israel's creation?

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Bismillah]

How are Arab countries (including Morocco, Iraq, Yemen, Egypt, Libya, Lebanon, Tunisia, and Syria) justified in cleansing about 1,000,000 Jews (that lived in those counties for many centuries) from their territories, and confiscating lands that are about 3 times the size of the state of Israel, during the time of Israel's creation?

Of course no side is justified in ethnic cleansing, but not every Jew in the Middle East was forced to leave. A large chunk voluntarily moved to Palestine while the creation of Isreal was forthcoming.

I would also like to point out to the ethnic cleansing that occurred in Israel itself during the 1948 war where Palestinians were driven out of the country through fear of massacres like Deir Yassin.

Further Ethnic cleansing of Palestinains included those by the Kuwaiti family after the first Gulf War.

Second which lands do you mean were confiscated? Syria lost the land of Palestine, Lebanon, and Transjordan. The King of Palestine was deposed and given Iraq as a conciliatory gesture. Jordan lost Jerusalem and the West Bank.

I'm not going to argue for the morality of Arab leaders, I view them with disgust and contempt. They have in the past, treated the Palestinians with actions as worse as those of the IDF.

 

[Bismillah]

Also, although I have not read to much on the foundings of Israel (something I really need to work on), I find it ironic that so many of the Zionist paramilitary groups, like the Irgun committed themselves to the type of resistance that Hamas would later adopt.

 

[Debunker]

Sure, maybe you can explain how modern day genocide is far more complex then it actually is

I hope you are not suggesting that the Jews are committing genocide.

 

[Enoughie]

Of course no side is justified in ethnic cleansing, but not every Jew in the Middle East was forced to leave. A large chunk voluntarily moved to Palestine while the creation of Isreal was forthcoming.

I would also like to point out to the ethnic cleansing that occurred in Israel itself during the 1948 war where Palestinians were driven out of the country through fear of massacres like Deir Yassin.

Yes, some Jews were ethnically cleansed, and some "voluntarily" moved (having to leave all their properties to the state). Jews also experienced similar massacres in many Arab countries before they chose to move. Wouldn't that be the same as Jews being driven out?

Further Ethnic cleansing of Palestinains included those by the Kuwaiti family after the first Gulf War.

Second which lands do you mean were confiscated? Syria lost the land of Palestine, Lebanon, and Transjordan. The King of Palestine was deposed and given Iraq as a conciliatory gesture. Jordan lost Jerusalem and the West Bank.

I'm talking here about the years 1947-49

Syria never had claim to the land of Palestine. Syria only started claiming the land in Palestine after France and Britain refused to give Emir Faisal (who wanted to rule Syria at the time) control over Syria. Interestingly enough, Emir Faisal had no problem signing an agreement with Zionists leader about making Palestine a Jewish homeland (see here: Faisal)

Jews who lived throughout the Middle East for many centuries, and in some cases over 2500 years, owned lands that would total about 3 times the size of the state of Israel. Some wealthy Jews even owned two of the palaces that Saddam Hussein later confiscated from them in Iraq. These lands were confiscated by these Arab states from their rightful Jewish owners.

I'm not going to argue for the morality of Arab leaders, I view them with disgust and contempt. They have in the past, treated the Palestinians with actions as worse as those of the IDF.

The problem is that it is impossible to separate the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, from the Arab-Israeli conflict. And I believe that it is the latter that caused the former.

The fact is that both Jews (both European and Sephardi) and Palestinians are basically the same people (and this was demonstrated with DNA tests). Palestinians are for the most part the same population that lived in the land for thousands of years. Many were expelled to Europe and elsewhere during the revolt in 135AD. But from the people that remained in the land, most adopted Christianity (because of the Roman influence), and later the majority adopted Islam with the Arab-Muslim conquest.

It is this influence of Arab-Muslim dominance that could not envision Jews and Muslims living as equals, after some 1300 years where non-Muslims were by law second-class citizens throughout the Middle East.

So when a "foreign entity" - the Zionists - wanted to have a homeland, and have Jews and Arab living side by side with equal rights, the Arab-Muslim world simply could not accept this.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[Debunker]

And this justifies it how?

Muslims have no problem in moving into other counties and demanding political rights. Look what they have done in Jordan, which was once a Christian country. Europe is filling up with Muslims and these people tend to cause trouble wherever they settle. I can find no reason that the Jews should not settle in their historical homeland and unite against the Muslims of the world that hate them. The main complaint the Muslims seem to have against Jews is that will not die quietly.

 

[Debunker]

Then why do they justify having it by saying god gave it to them, if it's a secular state by secular Jews? Why do they wrangle support from the Christians by saying it's a fufillment of prophecy? They don't even believe in prophecy.

I am reading toward the end of this thread. I hope no one else has pointed this out but can you name a secular state anywhere that does not have a religions, including communist counties? Your question here is either a nonsense question and should be ignored in this intellectual discussion.

 

[Debunker]

What would you call it then? The Palestinians have been baracaded inside of their homes and not allowed to leave unless they're leaving the country. They are being starved to death and forced to survive on the most meager resources.

Another nonsense statement. If the Palestinians would work as hared to bring food into the land as they do to smuggle in arms to use to kill the Jews, there would plenty of food to fed both nations.

 

[Debunker]

The problem is that today Israelis are about just as ignorant about their own history as Americans are about theirs.

That's why many Christians and conservatives in America say that America is a Christian nation (while this is fundamentally not true - the U.S. Constitution is distinctively secular!)

Religious Jews in Israel (especially those who live in the illegal settlements), who are a relative minority in Israeli, view everything in religious terms. And that how they justify their own actions, and that's how they relate to Evangelical Christians in American.

But this has nothing to do with the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict.

The first Prime Minister of Israel famously said: we have no ownership over the past in this land [Israel], only over the future.

So while he certainly recognized that Jews had sovereignty over this land some 2000 years ago, he understood that this does not give Jews the right to take land from Arabs. They only have "ownership over the future" - to build on new grounds.

Of course, this idyllic worldview had to be revised as it became clear that peaceful coexistence is no longer possible (around the 1940s). Yet, right up to the war in 1948, Jews were still legally acquiring lands, and this was proven by an independent British commission (the Peel Commission in 1938) that was investigating (the false) Arab claims of Jews stealing land from Arabs.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

Nonsense! Your analysis of historical facts is not intelligent and I base this opinion, not only on what I know to be true, but on your own words.
First, you are unfamiliar with the history behind the Constitution of the USA. This point is not worthy of intellectual debate. You probably know you are twisting the facts in order to prove a fallacious belief.
Second, you say: "Religious Jews in Israel (especially those who live in the illegal settlements), who are a relative minority in Israeli, view everything in religious terms." I answer this by asking, "and the Muslims do not?" Another thing, how is what the Israelis doing illegal?

 

[Enoughie]

Nonsense! Your analysis of historical facts is not intelligent and I base this opinion, not only on what I know to be true, but on your own words.
First, you are unfamiliar with the history behind the Constitution of the USA. This point is not worthy of intellectual debate. You probably know you are twisting the facts in order to prove a fallacious belief.

Aren't you being presumptuous!

First ,how exactly do you know whether I'm familiar with the history of the Constitution or not?

Second, the U.S. Constitution IS a secular document. There is no reference in it to any supernatural power, or any religious practice.

Prove me wrong. Show where the U.S. Constitution refers to God.

Second, you say: "Religious Jews in Israel (especially those who live in the illegal settlements), who are a relative minority in Israeli, view everything in religious terms." I answer this by asking, "and the Muslims do not?"

You have to read what I wrote in the context of the comment I was answering. You're over-analyzing.

Another thing, how is what the Israelis doing illegal?

It is illegal to move a population of an occupying country into occupied territories according to international law.

_____________________
Natural Philosophy of Life - a simple, elegant, and powerful alternative to religious dogma

 

[fallingblood]

I think this thread has greatly benefited from what Abibi has stated. He has brought to the conversation some great material. He offers a viewpoint that is a benefit to this discussion, and hopefully will shed some more light on the subject.



On a different note, I think some of the hate-mongering needs to quit. Relating Zionists to Nazis is going too far. Relating Israel to Nazi Germany is going too far. It's alright to criticize Israel. There obviously are some problems that can't be denied and I don't think anyone is. However, there is a right way to address it and there is a wrong way. Calling Israel a parasite is not the right way. Demonizing Israel, why praising its enemies is not the right way. All that is is hateful propaganda based on ignorance. There is no need for that, on either side.

 

[Debunker]

Judaism is a religion, and like many other religions has suffered persecutions, mostly because they did not comform to the custom of those societies; today Israel is doing the same to the Arabs living in Israel. hypocricy is rife expecially in Israel.

Nonsense! Do you think the greatest migrants of modern time, the Muslims, are not the ones stirring up trouble? What kind of theology do you represent? If you are going to judge, judge righteously.

 

[Debunker]

I don't care about Israel either way, even though I don't agree with it's actions. I just wish my government would cut the parasite off of our backs.

At this point you are not convincing. Face the truth, at this point, you have no logical rebutting to those who point out the truth about the Jews and Palestinians. You are like many Muslims. The truth would be their best refuge but Allah has sent them a lie and they believe the lie, and they will be damned (Romans 1 - 3).

 

[Debunker]

You seem to be missing the secular involvement of the UN here. Without their drive (ochestrated by the UK) to establish 'the return to the promise land' there would be no Israel today. Again it boils down to the dominace of the west and their self centered ambitions. Religion can only be guilty for peoples actions when religion instructs those actions. Correct me if im wrong but no religious scripture says that the Arabs should be made prisioners in their own country so that the west can indulge in their ideology. The Jews could not have done this alone and therefore the west is as guilty as anyone for what is happening.

This is the most illogical analyses of the Jewish/Arab situation I have heard to date. It would be equally true to say that it boiled down to the Muslims efforts to dominate the Mid Eastern world. Why do you blame the West for the trouble of Mid Eastern people while it is so obvious the Eastern world of Islam has made very few contributions to the growth of a sophisticated civilization? It is a lie and ignores all the facts presented on this thread to blame the West for self centered behavior when nothing is said of the atrocities the Mid Eastern counties have brought upon their own people in the name of religion.

The people on this forum are too smart to fall for the illogic which some of you use against the Jews, and many of them are not even religious. It is obvious that the OP did not expect the reasoning that would come forth on this thread. You and he are dumbfounded by the response you have received Give it up. The majority of reasoning people can see through your hate and animosity for Israel and the USA.

Correct me if I am wrong, you say, but that is not possible because you do not follow truth and reason. Tpp many facts of history have been presented here and you continually twist these fact in your mind. History is what it is and it is too late to rewrite it here.

 

[Debunker]

No I know fully well that the Israelis were granted permission by Great Britain to occupy and develop the land. What I don't agree with is the stuff afterward. Like driving the Palestianians all the way to the Gaza Strip and then putting them in living situtations worse then a concentration camp. That's exactly what many have called Gaza who have seen it, a massive concentration camp.

What you fail to recognize is that Israel does not keep the Gaza people in a concentration camp. The wealthy Muslim counties of the Mid East do. They could easily provide food and necessities of life to these people. But what the Muslims want is for the people of Gaza to do is dig tunnels into Gaza on both sides of the border and to smuggle in arms from Iran and anti Jewish Arabs and keep the conflict going. The purpose of the Palestinian leaders, including Hamas, is to destroy Israel. In the meantime they want to point, as you do, to the suffering of the Palestinians to bring condemnation on Israel.

 

[israelite32]

LETS GET THIS STRAIGHT! there is no such thing as an israeli. no such thing as a "jew" either! we are ISRAELITES! who killed millions of us during ww2? not our arab muslim brothers. we should have been given the land of our oppressors but to start problems between us (divide and conquer) they (united nations aka USA aka BABYLON) decided to give us land belonging to righteous people already. no thanks satan ISRAEL is in my future but not until the MESSIAH (not jesus) comes. zionist are not ISRAELITES at all but rather gentiles in disguise (edomites)! point the finger at the right people! SHALOM

 

[Debunker]

Those who look at it from a pro-Zionist view actually try to justify the inhumane treatment of the Palestinians.

Those who look at it from an objective point view know that the Muslim powers of the Mid East could put an end to the suffering in Gaza now. this is well known fact. why are you beating on this dead dog?Have you know shame? Except the truth! If you want to bring peace to Gaza, talk to Hamas.They and Iran are the ones causing all the suffering in the Gaza.