How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Ok let's look at love. I understand love from a Christian perspective but my wife was born in Burma, a Buddhist culture, which was influenced by Buddhism so their expression of love is different from mine, but both cultures have and know love because it's an intrinsic quality built into all human beings.

In the Burmese culture their expression of love is to serve and feed you as they know poverty. Instead of 'how are you? the Burmese greet each other with - 'have you eaten?

At first I thought that because they hadn't been taught the Christian concept of love that they didn't understand it but in practice they express love more with deeds than words.

But they understand love and so do we.

Good example. From my end, this is why I see this different.

A Deaf woman and a Hearing person (say myself) both brought up in American culture. We both have love (and everything else Americans value) but the very fact I am not Deaf and she is not hearing makes us two words apart.

If my culture valued hugging others just as Deaf culture does, we have similar values but the very fact I am not Deaf, makes my experiences, my connection, my "love" with others different (not good or bad or right or wrong) just different than another Deaf person beside her.

I have seen hearing students learning ASL feel (Bahai comparison) because they know sign and know some of Deaf culture, they are connected because they both share the same values. They do not. The very fact they are not Deaf (upper case D) makes them a world a part from hearing culture (which there is such thing).

Differences can define a culture not just used as a comparison. Americans value speech over deeds. Yes, we say "it's what you say not what you do" but you see on t.v. and even talk to others and find that people remember what and how you say things because it affects how they feel and the bias they have. So they may value more the words I love you than your wife would who would show it.

These "loves" are different because the culture that shape them are drastically different. The love or social connection I have with another hearing person or Deaf person is not the same love (regardless if it looks the same) as a Deaf person would have with his peer.

Your wife may have a different connection with other Bermese men and women that she wouldn't have with you on a religious level.

I mean, a hand full of children are born with Deaf parents. They are called CODAs. Children of Deaf Adults. They have the culture, language, and slang of the Deaf community but the very fact they are not Deaf (and you're not Bermese or she not Bahai) defines your love differently. It's beautiful that both your definitions do not conflict like a Muslim and Christian would.

Christianity, another example of love, is through human sacrifice. Buddhism, on the other hand values life. They both have love and both have probably the same benefits and results of love but how do you coincide the former thinking if one dies, one is saved and the other is saying if one lives they can be saved. You can't save someone by dying. Yet, that's what Christians believe.

How can a Christian's love and a Buddhist's love be the same when their foundations are drastically different?

Look at the foundations not the results of them.

If I go to a Catholic Church and take the Eucharist, I can claim up and down I have the same love they have for christ because we share in the sacraments. However, the sacraments are not isolated. They coinside with one's belief. The very fact that my foundations are different, regardless of how much giving or communing I do, the definition I have is completely different than a Catholic, yours, and a Hindu.

Maybe you don't understand it because the results of both a Christian's love and Buddhist's love results in giving?

But I'm looking at the foundations. You can call yourself any religion if you went off of benefits each religion promotes. But you call yourself Bahai.

So odviously, there is some truth that Bahaullah has that Christ does not for you to be Bahai and not fully christian.

These aren't differences. This is your truth and your wife has hers and I have mine. That doesn't make either of us wrong. It just means we have multiple truths.

Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy the diversity. This is who we are.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They express spirituality and do define it but I believe what should define spirituality as I understand it is the Word of God as it is perfect. If we base any tradition or spirituality upon man made ideas it might or might not turn out to be good depending on the person, but principles and teachings which come from God are the best model, I believe upon which to base ones life.

Traditions are principles and teachings. You attribute it to god, so they are not man-made. Why do you keep associating traditions that are man-made when the traditions you believe in come from god?

What I believe has happened is humanity is basing a lot of its traditions and customs on man made ideas which haven't brought us to peace or unity but instead caused conflict and division,

Religious traditions and customs man-made or god-made do not bring wars and division. People do. Address the people. The bias you have over the word traditions, dogma, and doctrine causes division because other people use these terms in peace and harmony but you see the bad in them. Then calling them man-made as if god-traditions are not expressed and interpreted through the hands of man.

If we want a peaceful world I think we need to go back to our real roots in the Word of God. For some this is not a part of their beliefs so we continue to have a world based not upon spiritual principles but materialistic ideals. And we pay the penalty for that in various ways such as wars, drugs , violence and so on.

This is your belief. Objectively, it doesn't work out. It's division just as other religions who want world peace. Division isn't wrong as long as it doesn't insult people and/or cause wars.

Baha'is are developing and basing their culture upon the Words of Baha'u'llah not just their own ideas or feelings.

What is Bahai culture if you said in your other posts culture and other "man-made traditions" are irrelevant to spirituality and what god says?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good example. From my end, this is why I see this different.

A Deaf woman and a Hearing person (say myself) both brought up in American culture. We both have love (and everything else Americans value) but the very fact I am not Deaf and she is not hearing makes us two words apart.

If my culture valued hugging others just as Deaf culture does, we have similar values but the very fact I am not Deaf, makes my experiences, my connection, my "love" with others different (not good or bad or right or wrong) just different than another Deaf person beside her.

I have seen hearing students learning ASL feel (Bahai comparison) because they know sign and know some of Deaf culture, they are connected because they both share the same values. They do not. The very fact they are not Deaf (upper case D) makes them a world a part from hearing culture (which there is such thing).

Differences can define a culture not just used as a comparison. Americans value speech over deeds. Yes, we say "it's what you say not what you do" but you see on t.v. and even talk to others and find that people remember what and how you say things because it affects how they feel and the bias they have. So they may value more the words I love you than your wife would who would show it.

These "loves" are different because the culture that shape them are drastically different. The love or social connection I have with another hearing person or Deaf person is not the same love (regardless if it looks the same) as a Deaf person would have with his peer.

Your wife may have a different connection with other Bermese men and women that she wouldn't have with you on a religious level.

I mean, a hand full of children are born with Deaf parents. They are called CODAs. Children of Deaf Adults. They have the culture, language, and slang of the Deaf community but the very fact they are not Deaf (and you're not Bermese or she not Bahai) defines your love differently. It's beautiful that both your definitions do not conflict like a Muslim and Christian would.

Christianity, another example of love, is through human sacrifice. Buddhism, on the other hand values life. They both have love and both have probably the same benefits and results of love but how do you coincide the former thinking if one dies, one is saved and the other is saying if one lives they can be saved. You can't save someone by dying. Yet, that's what Christians believe.

How can a Christian's love and a Buddhist's love be the same when their foundations are drastically different?

Look at the foundations not the results of them.

If I go to a Catholic Church and take the Eucharist, I can claim up and down I have the same love they have for christ because we share in the sacraments. However, the sacraments are not isolated. They coinside with one's belief. The very fact that my foundations are different, regardless of how much giving or communing I do, the definition I have is completely different than a Catholic, yours, and a Hindu.

Maybe you don't understand it because the results of both a Christian's love and Buddhist's love results in giving?

But I'm looking at the foundations. You can call yourself any religion if you went off of benefits each religion promotes. But you call yourself Bahai.

So odviously, there is some truth that Bahaullah has that Christ does not for you to be Bahai and not fully christian.

These aren't differences. This is your truth and your wife has hers and I have mine. That doesn't make either of us wrong. It just means we have multiple truths.

Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy the diversity. This is who we are.

I fully acknowledge that the outward experience is totally different with different beliefs and cultures but the inner reality we are trying to express is the same.

A Christian may try to express love in one way , a Baha'i in another. That's diversity and that's good. We don't say you have to express love the same way only that we accept your diversity and we love you for who you are.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I fully acknowledge that the outward experience is totally different with different beliefs and cultures but the inner reality we are trying to express is the same.

A Christian may try to express love in one way , a Baha'i in another. That's diversity and that's good. We don't say you have to express love the same way only that we accept your diversity and we love you for who you are.

Don't think you understand me. I understand you just can't figure how that's possible.

Inside and outside coincide. Inside/Outside.

Inner experience and outward expression are together. They are not separate.

The Inner/Outer experience is different in one religion than another.

They both have different truths.

Inner/outer experience=love 1

Inner/outer experience=love 2

Christians call love one sacrifice

Buddhist call love two enlightenment

They are not the same thing.

The expressions are different and their beliefs and foundations are different.

They hold different truths.

Both can have the same results such as giving. They are not built on the same foundations. These two are opposite of each other.

How can you have one-truth or share it when they are mirror opposites in foundation?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Traditions are principles and teachings. You attribute it to god, so they are not man-made. Why do you keep associating traditions that are man-made when the traditions you believe in come from god?



Religious traditions and customs man-made or god-made do not bring wars and division. People do. Address the people. The bias you have over the word traditions, dogma, and doctrine causes division because other people use these terms in peace and harmony but you see the bad in them. Then calling them man-made as if god-traditions are not expressed and interpreted through the hands of man.



This is your belief. Objectively, it doesn't work out. It's division just as other religions who want world peace. Division isn't wrong as long as it doesn't insult people and/or cause wars.



What is Bahai culture if you said in your other posts culture and other "man-made traditions" are irrelevant to spirituality and what god says?

Baha'u'llah's Words, like all the Teachers, we believe are not human but Divine and contain a transforming power that the ordinary words of men of not contain.

We can, of course follow man made traditions and many of them are beautiful but for things like the elusive world peace and an end to things like racism and wars we need a stronger medicine which we believe is the Word of God and the Teachings for this age.

Baha'is are just building their culture but it is all based on the Word of God not traditions made up by Baha'is. Our culture and traditions come directly from the Words. Laws, teachings if Baha'u'llah.

For instance things like:

1. Reading the Writings every morn and evening
2. Obligatory prayer
3. The 19 Day Feast
4. Fasting
5. Universal spiritual Institute
6. Music
7. Children and youth spiritual education
8. Dawn prayers
9. Confession to God only
10. Old age is from 70
11. Special prayer to be said in times of natural disasters
12. Obedience to government
13. Non involvement in party politics
14. Forbidden to interpret Holy Writings. Only Baha'u'llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi's interpretations are authoritative.

These are not all but some 'traditions' which all come from clear passages in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Word of God.

We fine tune our behavior, culture and traditions according to the Writings. They are the foundation of our culture and tradition.

Our culture is determined by the Writings not the other way round.

But we have many Books actually written by Baha'u'llah Himself defining things for us.

There are hundreds more ...

 

[loverofhumanity]

Don't think you understand me. I understand you just can't figure how that's possible.

Inside and outside coincide. Inside/Outside.

Inner experience and outward expression are together. They are not separate.

The Inner/Outer experience is different in one religion than another.

They both have different truths.

Inner/outer experience=love 1

Inner/outer experience=love 2

Christians call love one sacrifice

Buddhist call love two enlightenment

They are not the same thing.

The expressions are different and their beliefs and foundations are different.

They hold different truths.

Both can have the same results such as giving. They are not built on the same foundations. These two are opposite of each other.

How can you have one-truth or share it when they are mirror opposites in foundation?

Baha'u'llah says they are separate.

Whenever the True Counsellor uttered a word in admonishment, lo, they all denounced Him as a mover of mischief and rejected His claim. How bewildering, how confusing is such behavior!

No two men can be found who may be said to be outwardly and inwardly united. The evidences of discord and malice are apparent everywhere, though all were made for harmony and union

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good example. From my end, this is why I see this different.

A Deaf woman and a Hearing person (say myself) both brought up in American culture. We both have love (and everything else Americans value) but the very fact I am not Deaf and she is not hearing makes us two words apart.

If my culture valued hugging others just as Deaf culture does, we have similar values but the very fact I am not Deaf, makes my experiences, my connection, my "love" with others different (not good or bad or right or wrong) just different than another Deaf person beside her.

I have seen hearing students learning ASL feel (Bahai comparison) because they know sign and know some of Deaf culture, they are connected because they both share the same values. They do not. The very fact they are not Deaf (upper case D) makes them a world a part from hearing culture (which there is such thing).

Differences can define a culture not just used as a comparison. Americans value speech over deeds. Yes, we say "it's what you say not what you do" but you see on t.v. and even talk to others and find that people remember what and how you say things because it affects how they feel and the bias they have. So they may value more the words I love you than your wife would who would show it.

These "loves" are different because the culture that shape them are drastically different. The love or social connection I have with another hearing person or Deaf person is not the same love (regardless if it looks the same) as a Deaf person would have with his peer.

Your wife may have a different connection with other Bermese men and women that she wouldn't have with you on a religious level.

I mean, a hand full of children are born with Deaf parents. They are called CODAs. Children of Deaf Adults. They have the culture, language, and slang of the Deaf community but the very fact they are not Deaf (and you're not Bermese or she not Bahai) defines your love differently. It's beautiful that both your definitions do not conflict like a Muslim and Christian would.

Christianity, another example of love, is through human sacrifice. Buddhism, on the other hand values life. They both have love and both have probably the same benefits and results of love but how do you coincide the former thinking if one dies, one is saved and the other is saying if one lives they can be saved. You can't save someone by dying. Yet, that's what Christians believe.

How can a Christian's love and a Buddhist's love be the same when their foundations are drastically different?

Look at the foundations not the results of them.

If I go to a Catholic Church and take the Eucharist, I can claim up and down I have the same love they have for christ because we share in the sacraments. However, the sacraments are not isolated. They coinside with one's belief. The very fact that my foundations are different, regardless of how much giving or communing I do, the definition I have is completely different than a Catholic, yours, and a Hindu.

Maybe you don't understand it because the results of both a Christian's love and Buddhist's love results in giving?

But I'm looking at the foundations. You can call yourself any religion if you went off of benefits each religion promotes. But you call yourself Bahai.

So odviously, there is some truth that Bahaullah has that Christ does not for you to be Bahai and not fully christian.

These aren't differences. This is your truth and your wife has hers and I have mine. That doesn't make either of us wrong. It just means we have multiple truths.

Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy the diversity. This is who we are.

I agree that outwardly we gave differences which add to diversity but inwardly we are all human species not alien.

You are saying that there are inward differences. Yes of perception and understanding, of course. But inwardly we all know love, justice and all have similar feelings as we are all human beings capable of experiencing the same feelings.

I think they call it empathy.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Are you able to try and understand why we are saying you are wrong both historically and spiritually?

You don't have to agree but disagreeing doesn't change how religion is created and how people interpret spirituality and TLC within themselves, others, and their environment.

You can't have peace if you disagree without understanding the nature of the disagreement to build mutual understanding and agreement with understanding at the least.

I understand we all belong to the same one human family albeit with differences in culture, beliefs and traditions which are part of our diversity and our oneness with each other and life.

I can't understand how you can't understand the simple truth if the oneness if all humanity and the oneness of religion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That wouldn't make sense. You'd have to be religionless to be equal to others. That's why I don't claim a religion because doing so makes me feel imbalance compared to those who just differ than me not right or wrong nor agree or disagree just differ.

Can you not be a bahai in order to share in one-truth without interpreting it through one religion out of a thousand options to choose from?

No. We accept the diversity of the outward differences but accept the inner truths all religions teach and are at one with them in spirit.

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes the numbers can be quite overwhelming but that's a part of the ancient scriptures. However just seeing the spiritual qualities of a Manifestation is enough for most.

We are told that the Prophets pre existed but that we were born at conception.

My personal view is yes but it requires each person investigate it with an unbiased mind independently.

So what was the spiritual qualities of Moses? How is he not just a man? How is he not mixed with myth and legend? How come he wasn't allowed into the Promised Land? How come the Bible, not the NT, talks about, and tells the story of the Jews? Nobody else matters. Egypt, Babylonia and others are all bad. And their religion is bad.

You use Daniel. Christians use Daniel. But when was Daniel written? There's some questionable things going on. You and everybody else can find verses to proof anything they want and twist and turn dates and number of years into anything you want. But then, when a verse goes against what you believe, it's suddenly symbolic? No 6 day Creation. No flood. What else don't you believe from the Bible? It is a continuous historical narrative. If those other parts in Genesis wrong, why believe the story of Abraham? The inconsistency is the problem.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ehh. Depends on the artist. My expressions are my truths. Likewise with religions. That's were we differ....

gotta go...

The pictures painted by the "Great Beings" are all different. Some elements are the same, but the path to where they want their followers to go is different. When we say, "Oh, but Hinduism and Buddhism believe in reincarnation." They say, "No, originally they didn't." We ask, "Where's those teachings that say that?" They say, "They're gone, but Baha'u'llah told us that was so."

It's like saying, "Trust us, all religions are one and don't believe your lying eyes."

 

[CG Didymus]

No. I'm happy with equal truth but not superior or greater. We cannot exalt one belief over another. They are all equal truth to us.

Oh, good, 'cause I sinned today and I'm tired of bugging Jesus all the time. "Hey Lord, I sinned again." So instead, I'm going to sacrifice a lamb as a burnt offering.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ok let's look at love. I understand love from a Christian perspective but my wife was born in Burma, a Buddhist culture, which was influenced by Buddhism so their expression of love is different from mine, but both cultures have and know love because it's an intrinsic quality built into all human beings.

In the Burmese culture their expression of love is to serve and feed you as they know poverty. Instead of 'how are you? the Burmese greet each other with - 'have you eaten?

At first I thought that because they hadn't been taught the Christian concept of love that they didn't understand it but in practice they express love more with deeds than words.

But they understand love and so do we.

I'm just catching up, so if you've already answered this I'll eventually get there. But if not, then... What is "Christian" Love to you?

 

[CG Didymus]

...the Word of God as it is perfect ..

Other than your own, which Words of God are perfect?

 

[loverofhumanity]

So what was the spiritual qualities of Moses? How is he not just a man? How is he not mixed with myth and legend? How come he wasn't allowed into the Promised Land? How come the Bible, not the NT, talks about, and tells the story of the Jews? Nobody else matters. Egypt, Babylonia and others are all bad. And their religion is bad.

You use Daniel. Christians use Daniel. But when was Daniel written? There's some questionable things going on. You and everybody else can find verses to proof anything they want and twist and turn dates and number of years into anything you want. But then, when a verse goes against what you believe, it's suddenly symbolic? No 6 day Creation. No flood. What else don't you believe from the Bible? It is a continuous historical narrative. If those other parts in Genesis wrong, why believe the story of Abraham? The inconsistency is the problem.

Baha'is are not permitted to interpret scriptures so all out interpretations come from Baha'u'llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi.

If they didn't leave any commentaries or interpretations in a topic then we don't know and can only speculate.

So all the topics like the days of creation and the flood etc can be found in Books like the Book of Certitude, Some Answered Questions and other talks of Abdul-Baha and compilations like Lights of Guidance.

There is no sudden changing to a symbolic version. This is what they have said over a hundred years ago and we are just conveying that.

Abdul-Baha interpreted the dates of the coming of Baha'u'llah from the Bible as did Shoghi Effendi.

You can look up all these things yourself by getting copies of these books online so I am just doing the hard work and research for you.

Th station of the Manifestations is two fold in the Book of Certitude. Thy have a human station and a a Divine station so they are both human and none human when they speak as God or for God.

Th Hindu dates I gave you were from a Baha'i scholar but all we have authoritative interpreted is that Baha'u'llah is Kalki Avatar.

Each Maniftation has all the same qualities as all the other Manifestations but they may emphasize different things according to the Mission they have been entrusted with. Some may emphasize love, others justice and so on.

In Some Answered Qurstions Abdul-Baha describes the greatness of Moses.

Th Old Testament was one Covenant from God, the New Testament was a different Covenant. Two different religions and revelations. But because the Old Testament prophesied Christ, the Christians accept it as Christ said that Moses had spoken of Him.

Here you can access any of the Baha'i Writings or search for a particular topic

Bahá’í Reference Library | The Bahá’í Faith

 

[loverofhumanity]

Other than your own, which Words of God are perfect?

The Holy Books of most religions are the Word of God but if there are discrepancies we rely on the latest Manifestation for clarification and/or interpretation.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'u'llah's Words, like all the Teachers, we believe are not human but Divine and contain a transforming power that the ordinary words of men of not contain.

We can, of course follow man made traditions and many of them are beautiful but for things like the elusive world peace and an end to things like racism and wars we need a stronger medicine which we believe is the Word of God and the Teachings for this age.

Baha'is are just building their culture but it is all based on the Word of God not traditions made up by Baha'is. Our culture and traditions come directly from the Words. Laws, teachings if Baha'u'llah.

For instance things like:

1. Reading the Writings every morn and evening
2. Obligatory prayer
3. The 19 Day Feast
4. Fasting
5. Universal spiritual Institute
6. Music
7. Children and youth spiritual education
8. Dawn prayers
9. Confession to God only
10. Old age is from 70
11. Special prayer to be said in times of natural disasters
12. Obedience to government
13. Non involvement in party politics
14. Forbidden to interpret Holy Writings. Only Baha'u'llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi's interpretations are authoritative.

These are not all but some 'traditions' which all come from clear passages in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Word of God.

We fine tune our behavior, culture and traditions according to the Writings. They are the foundation of our culture and tradition.

Our culture is determined by the Writings not the other way round.

But we have many Books actually written by Baha'u'llah Himself defining things for us.

There are hundreds more ...

Do you understand all you said are traditions?

Traditions are practices and beliefs held down and passed down by generation.

It can be from god or from man.

What is wrong with Word tradition?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Baha'u'llah says they are separate.

Whenever the True Counsellor uttered a word in admonishment, lo, they all denounced Him as a mover of mischief and rejected His claim. How bewildering, how confusing is such behavior!

No two men can be found who may be said to be outwardly and inwardly united. The evidences of discord and malice are apparent everywhere, though all were made for harmony and union

That means you need no holidays, ways of prayer, and bahullahs teachings, right? God gave you the option to do without them?

Why take the effort to express your faith when they are separate from bahaullah's teachings?

Does your traditions cause discord?

I know other traditions do not.

People do.

You can see a knife as a knife. I use it for butter spreading. You can see people use it to kill but thats your eyes. Not everyone uses a knife in that way. Most people sincere about their religions dont see a knife. Thats all on you.

Whats up with that?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No. We accept the diversity of the outward differences but acc
ept the inner truths all religions teach and are at one with them in spirit.

Thank you. Nice and simple. I want to ask again. Do you understand me that there is no separation?

Separation causes wars. It depreciates other people and their truth. Cant you see the damage that is doing?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

They express spirituality and do define it but I believe what should define spirituality as I understand it is the Word of God as it is perfect. If we base any tradition or spirituality upon man made ideas it might or might not turn out to be good depending on the person, but principles and teachings which come from God are the best model, I believe upon which to base ones life.

What I believe has happened is humanity is basing a lot of its traditions and customs on man made ideas which haven't brought us to peace or unity but instead caused conflict and division,

If we want a peaceful world I think we need to go back to our real roots in the Word of God. For some this is not a part of their beliefs so we continue to have a world based not upon spiritual principles but materialistic ideals. And we pay the penalty for that in various ways such as wars, drugs , violence and so on.

Baha'is are developing and basing their culture upon the Words of Baha'u'llah not just their own ideas or feelings.

This does not address my post.