How are these Great Beings explained?

[Vinayaka]

Careful, you're beginning to sound a little like me. Everything you just said I agree with and in my mind, this is the method that Baha'u'llah meant when he encouraged independent investigation. He also taught that the only time that science and religion disagree is when either science is being too materialistic or religion is being too superstitious.

There is a huge difference. You need Baha'u'llah. I don't. In my version of Hinduism, and in fact most versions of Hinduism, you need a LIVING guru, and that is only in the final stages of the soul's evolution, when the soul is actually ready for it, as when a toddler is ready for language, or to walk. Besides, we have reincarnation and from what other Bahais have informed me on this thread, you don't believe in that.

The LIVING Satguru is right there to advise the sishya (student) on the specific help he or she might need in resolving the individual karmas and misunderstandings their unique embodiment of a physical body of this lifetime may have incurred. So it's a phone call or email away, not some hard intellectual study (and quite possible misinterpretation) of some book that was written in some past time when there was a different understanding of the world. The Guru-sishya relationship is right at the core of Hinduism.

So we differ. Yes, as I've learned in this thread, some (but not all, fortunately) Bahais like to suggest the many similarities that just aren't there. But the minute we dig a little below the polite surface of things, we hit all the irreconcilable contradictions, which is fine, especially if you can see it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Moses confirmed Adam. Both Moses and Muhammad taught about the oneness of God. Moses condemned the worshipping of the golden calf and Muhammad the 360 gods the Quraysh worshipped.

Moses confirmed what about Adam? "Cause in the NT Paul says something about sin entering the world because of Adam's sin.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Which language would that be? So many beautiful languages have disappeared already. Sounds like you're trying to eliminate all diversity and make the entire world under the banner of Bahai. My prediction is simply that it won't happen, and that Bahai will disappear, just as so many other new faiths do. But of course everyone is entitles to their pipe dreams.

It would be a world Auxilliary language in addition to languages already spoken. One that could be used worldwide chosen by the people of the world. It's nothing to do with diversity but to facilitate communication and understanding between people.

 

[CG Didymus]

Just to add:
Within 108 years the community/Jamaat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad founded has spread to 209 countries of the world, peacefully. Please
Regards

Now this is getting interesting. How does his teaching compare with the teachings of the Baha'i Faith?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Moses confirmed what about Adam? "Cause in the NT Paul says something about sin entering the world because of Adam's sin.

Before Adam there were Manifestations it we don't have records to know who they were.

 

[CG Didymus]

Kalki?

The plot thickens for certain.

Kalki - Hindupedia, the Hindu Encyclopedia

Kalki - Wikipedia

I wonder if a better comparison would be Buddhism and Hinduism compared to the Abrahamic Faiths. Buddhism arose out of Hinduism as Christianity arose out of Judaism, and Islam makes extensive references to the Hebrew bible and to a lesser extent Christianity.

Here's what the site you linked us to said:
"Out of the ten avatāras or such incarnations generally known as ‘Daśāvatāras’, Kalki is the last. It is yet to come. He is said to appear at the end of the Kaliyuga as the son of Viṣṇuśarma and Sumati in the city of Sambalāpura."

I trust you have a way of tying in Baha'u'llah to this city and being born to these people.

 

[CG Didymus]

I wonder if its best to consider the purpose of religion in very general terms and find common ground that way. For example religion promoting virtue and good character, genuine relationships between people, and enlightened thinking.

Why have many religions declined in the modern world? My answer is that it is hard to believe in gods and great beings without thinking they are all myth and legend. It seems very reasonable to me that religions was meant to control the people in a society.

The Western world has called into question all those ancient beliefs. The Baha'i Faith is some what updated, but it still has too many ties with the religions of the past... like the Baha'i laws, believing in an invisible God that will reward you after you die. What's the fun in that?

Mystical religions, new age religions, even things like Scientology have more to offer the modern person. The Baha'i Faith is still an organization with people at the top in control.

 

[Vinayaka]

It would be a world Auxilliary language in addition to languages already spoken. One that could be used worldwide chosen by the people of the world. It's nothing to do with diversity but to facilitate communication and understanding between people.

We already have that, in translators. Besides, it has been proposed before. I can't remember the name of it, but it was tried with some vigor, but it wasn't successful, because of ego, I can imagine. I'll research it for you.

Edited: Esperanto Esperanto - Google Search

 

[Dawnofhope]

Here's what the site you linked us to said:
"Out of the ten avatāras or such incarnations generally known as ‘Daśāvatāras’, Kalki is the last. It is yet to come. He is said to appear at the end of the Kaliyuga as the son of Viṣṇuśarma and Sumati in the city of Sambalāpura."

I trust you have a way of tying in Baha'u'llah to this city and being born to these people.

I don't give interpretations or assessments of Hindu writings/beliefs. Sorry about that.

 

[CG Didymus]

Careful, you're beginning to sound a little like me. Everything you just said I agree with and in my mind, this is the method that Baha'u'llah meant when he encouraged independent investigation. He also taught that the only time that science and religion disagree is when either science is being too materialistic or religion is being too superstitious.

Or, when science tries to disprove religious beliefs and religion gets too mystical. I knew a girl that believed she was from Venus. Scientifically, I'd say that's impossible, but she was drop dead gorgeous, so naturally, I believed her.

Baha'i have their "Great Beings"... they call manifestations. However, a guy like Moses seems to have been an ordinary person until his God choose him for a mission. He stumbled a few times. He wasn't perfect. So there definition of a "manifestation" doesn't work very well for all these people they claim to be "manifestations."

But what about Great Sages, Great Prophets, and Great spiritual people? There are so many that founded small religious groups, or had a mystical experience that started an offshoot within a religion. Lots of these people were similar to a Moses or a Buddha or maybe could be classified as one of these Buddha and not one of the Baha'i "manifestations."

 

[CG Didymus]

I don't give interpretations or assessments of Hindu writings/beliefs. Sorry about that.

But if you believe Baha'u'llah is the return of Krishna, then he is Kalki. So how does the Baha'i Faith interpret these prophecies of Kalki?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Here's what the site you linked us to said:
"Out of the ten avatāras or such incarnations generally known as ‘Daśāvatāras’, Kalki is the last. It is yet to come. He is said to appear at the end of the Kaliyuga as the son of Viṣṇuśarma and Sumati in the city of Sambalāpura."

I trust you have a way of tying in Baha'u'llah to this city and being born to these people.

I've already posted a quite large post of proofs linking Baha'u'llah to Kalki to you.

Also something about Moses and Baha'u'llah I found the other day which makes them both even closer than I thought.


Bahá’u’lláh Conversed with Moses in the Burning Bush

“Bahá’u’lláh is not the Intermediary between other Manifestations and God. Each has His own relation to the Primal Source. But in the sense that Bahá’u’lláh is the greatest Manifestation to yet appear, the One Who consummates the Revelation of Moses; He was the One Moses conversed with in the Burning Bush. In other words Bahá’u’lláh identifies the glory of the Godhead on that occasion with Himself. No distinction can be made amongst the Prophets in the sense that They all proceed from One Source, and are of One Essence. But Their stations and functions in this world are different.”
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, October 19, 1947)

 

[Dawnofhope]

Mystical religions, new age religions, even things like Scientology have more to offer the modern person.

That's debateable. Scientology? really!

like the Baha'i laws, believing in an invisible God that will reward you after you die. What's the fun in that?

Works for me.

The Baha'i Faith is still an organization with people at the top in control.

Its really a grassroots organisation where power is in the hands of individuals and local communities.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But if you believe Baha'u'llah is the return of Krishna, then he is Kalki. So how does the Baha'i Faith interpret these prophecies of Kalki?

That is true, but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I have a great deal of experience with Christianity so have no qualms about connecting the Baha'i Faith to Christianity. Its very important that people who answer these types of questions, are qualified to do so. I'm not. We need a Baha'i who can. @loverofhumanity and @arthra have put their hands up to engage in that conversation.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is a huge difference. You need Baha'u'llah. I don't. In my version of Hinduism, and in fact most versions of Hinduism, you need a LIVING guru, and that is only in the final stages of the soul's evolution, when the soul is actually ready for it, as when a toddler is ready for language, or to walk. Besides, we have reincarnation and from what other Bahais have informed me on this thread, you don't believe in that.

The LIVING Satguru is right there to advise the sishya (student) on the specific help he or she might need in resolving the individual karmas and misunderstandings their unique embodiment of a physical body of this lifetime may have incurred. So it's a phone call or email away, not some hard intellectual study (and quite possible misinterpretation) of some book that was written in some past time when there was a different understanding of the world. The Guru-sishya relationship is right at the core of Hinduism.

So we differ. Yes, as I've learned in this thread, some (but not all, fortunately) Bahais like to suggest the many similarities that just aren't there. But the minute we dig a little below the polite surface of things, we hit all the irreconcilable contradictions, which is fine, especially if you can see it.

Huge differences. A born again Christian has everything they need in their Savior Jesus. A Jew has everything they need in their Scriptures.

The religions, like Hinduism and Buddhism that have a core belief in reincarnation, get freed from the cycle of rebirth by doing certain things.

So what do Baha'is have? I've said it and I think you said it too. The Baha'i Faith is very much related to Islam. They have their laws, prayers, a fast, a pilgrimage, and a governing body and a prophet that wants to unite the world. Great, except they do seek converts. To do that they have to convince and prove to others they have the truth.

 

[CG Didymus]

Before Adam there were Manifestations it we don't have records to know who they were.

No, I said Christianity says Adam was brought sin into the world. A negative. You said that Moses confirmed Adam. What did Moses say about Adam?

 

[CG Didymus]

That is true, but a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. I have a great deal of experience with Christianity so have no qualms about connecting the Baha'i Faith to Christianity. Its very important that people who answer these types of questions, are qualified to do so. I'm not. We need a Baha'i who can. @loverofhumanity and @arthra have put their hands up to engage in that conversation.

Yes, it is. You're wise not to do the old foot in mouth thing. Until this thread, I had never heard of Kalki. Like the dating of the Kaliyuga. They really don't prove anything. Because, someone is going to find a way to prove the dates and time fit in. While others, that don't want you to be true, are going to disregard it anyway.

Like your thing with the resurrection. If a born again Christian even bothered to read it, I doubt they were listening and reading with an open mind. But, thanks for trying to answer all these questions. I'm definitely learning a lot.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, it is. You're wise not to do the old foot in mouth thing. Until this thread, I had never heard of Kalki. Like the dating of the Kaliyuga. They really don't prove anything. Because, someone is going to find a way to prove the dates and time fit in. While others, that don't want you to be true, are going to disregard it anyway.

That is exactly right. There are those who will prove it and disprove it. The important aspect is that Baha'is can find a plausible explanation. It is never going to be conclusive and prophecies are not the main proofs. The main proof lies in with the life and teachings of the manifestation of God. Those teachings need to have the power to transform our lives. What that has mean today, that I have gone from having a potentially horrible day to have a good day because I chose to turn to Baha'u'llah and His teachings and found inspiration to rise above it all. So the ultimate proof is being able to transform our own lives. That is exciting.

Like your thing with the resurrection. If a born again Christian even bothered to read it, I doubt they were listening and reading with an open mind. But, thanks for trying to answer all these questions. I'm definitely learning a lot.

The resurrection was the issue in Christianity that I was most troubled by, so I have prayerfully considered the truth of this core Christian belief. Whether I have learned anything or am deluded is for the listener to decide. Pleased to hear you are getting something out of it.

 

[Vinayaka]

I've already posted a quite large post of proofs linking Baha'u'llah to Kalki to you.

In your mind, yes.

 

[Vinayaka]

That is exactly right. There are those who will prove it and disprove it. The important aspect is that Baha'is can find a plausible explanation. It is never going to be conclusive and prophecies are not the main proofs. The main proof lies in with the life and teachings of the manifestation of God. Those teachings need to have the power to transform our lives. What that has mean today, that I have gone from having a potentially horrible day to have a good day because I chose to turn to Baha'u'llah and His teachings and found inspiration to rise above it all. So the ultimate proof is being able to transform our own lives. That is exciting.

And what happens when it's a moral or spiritual question that can't be answered in the teachings? Like use of the internet for proselytizing or for getting information, or the new information we have on smoking, or other medical issues, or diets?