How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

If Bahaullah is christ, why reflect any title of god on Bahaullah if christ rejected it himself?

Because Christs first coming was not as the Father but as the Son. His second coming however was 'in the glory of the Father' the verse in Isaiah refers to His second coming not His first.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Look throughout the prophecies in the Bible for 'Glory of God' (there are heaps) they are English for 'Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah's name is all throughout the Bible especially in prophecies.

You are saying, for example, Christ means annointed one. Bahaullah is the annointed one. So Bahaullah must be Christ.

I'm saying because christ is an actual person regardless of what he is called, he is distinct, had distinct mission, prophecies, etc apart from Bahaullah the person. You are looking at meaning but the physical part has to be there too or you can connect meanings of names with any religion and it would fit under your religion. In other religions, that is false and if you want these religions in your faith, you have to accept what you believe about them is not what they teach themselves.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Because Christs first coming was not as the Father but as the Son. His second coming however was 'in the glory of the Father' the verse in Isaiah refers to His second coming not His first.

I can disagree all day about prophecies and Bahaullah being in the bible, but what interest me the most is that you actually tried praying to a statue. I know mary is an actual spirit and if you don't connect with her in prayer, thats' fine. But a block of marble????

 

[Vinayaka]

Anyone who wants to build a better world can join in. We are not the chosen ones. More likely we are the only ones God could find willing to take on this task.

You are not the only ones. Millions of people all over the planet are trying to build a safer world.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I can disagree all day about prophecies and Bahaullah being in the bible, but what interest me the most is that you actually tried praying to a statue. I know mary is an actual spirit and if you don't connect with her in prayer, thats' fine. But a block of marble????

That's what my mother and all Catholics did. Every Catholic Church in Australia.

Catholic Statues

Whatever the initial reason, it eventually turned into idol worship where even now we hear of stories of statues crying etc

Statue of the Virgin Mary begins crying BLOOD | Daily Mail Online

People tend to get carried away with these things and my mind just doesn't accept it but people can believe what they want.

The thing about these statues is that nobody knows what Jesus, Mary and Joseph looked like so to make images which end up being worshipped are an insult to Jesus and the others. They probably looked entirely different so who really is being worshipped here? Some idea in the mind of a sculpturer is being worshipped.

And they do worship these statues. I know because I've seen it with my own eyes. But that's their right to do as they please. Much similar to the Jews and the golden calf. I find Christ in the Baha'i Faith but not in Christianity anymore. Just my opinion nothing more.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are not the only ones. Millions of people all over the planet are trying to build a safer world.

I meant an entire new word system not just a safer world.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

That's what my mother and all Catholics did. Every Catholic Church in Australia.

Catholic Statues

Whatever the initial reason, it eventually turned into idol worship where even now we hear if stories if statues crying etc

Statue of the Virgin Mary begins crying BLOOD | Daily Mail Online

People tend to get carried away with these things and my mind just doesn't accept it but people can believe what they want.

Hmm. I must have been a unorthodox Catholic. (and their CCC is off too, it seems). I forgot about the crying statues. But like consecrated bread, the bread and wine isn't worshiped. It is used to bring christ present in the body (the people of the Church) christ as in scripture.

I'll take a look at the links. The statues aren't worshiped, though. Like consecrated bread, for lack of better words, the spirit of christ, mary, or so have you embodies the physical statue (if going by the movies since Catholics here don't have that "worshiping idols" feeling here) to where when you come in contact with the marbel, the person in their heart feel they have a reflection of christ (or so have you).

I've never seen a statue cry, though. The way I connected with statues are different than I seen Catholics do in Latin Mass. But in the CCC and Bible it doesn't teach that a person prays to statues only christ, saints, and god.

So, going off people (again) will warp what traditions actually mean to people and how they relate to them. Changing them because people cause wars doesn't make people change. You have to address the people.

As for biblical prophecies, Bahaullah isn't a "son of abraham". He's a gentile just as you and I. We can put him anywhere based on the meaning of his name but because he is an actual person, to me it seems like you're picking straws with trying to connect him with scripture.

 

[Vinayaka]

I meant an entire new word system not just a safer world.

Yes, lots of people are trying to do that. WHO, UN, and many others are world-wide organisations without borders or political allies. My point is that it isn't just the Bahai thinking this way. There are lots of us.

But all that is very external stuff. It doesn't focus on the nature of the individual man, and try to change that. If we can change all of the individuals, the whole will naturally follow. Peaceful individuals make peaceful families make peaceful villages, etc.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You are saying, for example, Christ means annointed one. Bahaullah is the annointed one. So Bahaullah must be Christ.

I'm saying because christ is an actual person regardless of what he is called, he is distinct, had distinct mission, prophecies, etc apart from Bahaullah the person. You are looking at meaning but the physical part has to be there too or you can connect meanings of names with any religion and it would fit under your religion. In other religions, that is false and if you want these religions in your faith, you have to accept what you believe about them is not what they teach themselves.

The Manifestations of God have a twofold nature.

1. Distinct Individuality

“each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation.”

2. One and the same Person

“Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person.”

3. Each are the return of all the Prophets

“If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendour. Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He verily speaketh the truth.

4. They all are the return of all the Prophets

“Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.”

Bahá’u’lláh.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hmm. I must have been a unorthodox Catholic. (and their CCC is off too, it seems). I forgot about the crying statues. But like consecrated bread, the bread and wine isn't worshiped. It is used to bring christ present in the body (the people of the Church) christ as in scripture.

I'll take a look at the links. The statues aren't worshiped, though. Like consecrated bread, for lack of better words, the spirit of christ, mary, or so have you embodies the physical statue (if going by the movies since Catholics here don't have that "worshiping idols" feeling here) to where when you come in contact with the marbel, the person in their heart feel they have a reflection of christ (or so have you).

I've never seen a statue cry, though. The way I connected with statues are different than I seen Catholics do in Latin Mass. But in the CCC and Bible it doesn't teach that a person prays to statues only christ, saints, and god.

So, going off people (again) will warp what traditions actually mean to people and how they relate to them. Changing them because people cause wars doesn't make people change. You have to address the people.

As for biblical prophecies, Bahaullah isn't a "son of abraham". He's a gentile just as you and I. We can put him anywhere based on the meaning of his name but because he is an actual person, to me it seems like you're picking straws with trying to connect him with scripture.

Thanks for all your insights Carlita.

Did you know Baha'u'llah's ancestry is from Abraham's wives Katurah and Sarah? He isn't just anywhere but is an actual descendent of Abraham. As well as a Descedent of Jesse.

With religion now I don't use any rituals or ceremonies to connect to God, just my heart and soul although I understand many people do feel they need visual aids but the danger is it can become idol worship.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, lots of people are trying to do that. WHO, UN, and many others are world-wide organisations without borders or political allies. My point is that it isn't just the Bahai thinking this way. There are lots of us.

But all that is very external stuff. It doesn't focus on the nature of the individual man, and try to change that. If we can change all of the individuals, the whole will naturally follow. Peaceful individuals make peaceful families make peaceful villages, etc.

Yes. It must be individual as well as collective transformation. Maybe at some point all our plans will coincide and we'll end up working together.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hmm. I must have been a unorthodox Catholic. (and their CCC is off too, it seems). I forgot about the crying statues. But like consecrated bread, the bread and wine isn't worshiped. It is used to bring christ present in the body (the people of the Church) christ as in scripture.

I'll take a look at the links. The statues aren't worshiped, though. Like consecrated bread, for lack of better words, the spirit of christ, mary, or so have you embodies the physical statue (if going by the movies since Catholics here don't have that "worshiping idols" feeling here) to where when you come in contact with the marbel, the person in their heart feel they have a reflection of christ (or so have you).

I've never seen a statue cry, though. The way I connected with statues are different than I seen Catholics do in Latin Mass. But in the CCC and Bible it doesn't teach that a person prays to statues only christ, saints, and god.

So, going off people (again) will warp what traditions actually mean to people and how they relate to them. Changing them because people cause wars doesn't make people change. You have to address the people.

As for biblical prophecies, Bahaullah isn't a "son of abraham". He's a gentile just as you and I. We can put him anywhere based on the meaning of his name but because he is an actual person, to me it seems like you're picking straws with trying to connect him with scripture.

It's late now so I'll have to get some rest and see you all later.

I'll always remember RF for being so welcoming to Baha'is. It's a far cry from Iran. Many thanks.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

“each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation.”

Each manifestation of god (taking away Buddhism) is distinct and has their own truth. There is no linkage between one prophet ad another (though you showed me the diagram) but their individual religions and scriptures oppose each other.

“Inasmuch as these Birds of the Celestial Throne are all sent down from the heaven of the Will of God, and as they all arise to proclaim His irresistible Faith, they therefore are regarded as one soul and the same person.”

Buddhism is the only one that has no god. The rest have different gods.

Christ doesn't have the same soul as Muhammad. They both taught to different things.

“If thou wilt observe with discriminating eyes, thou wilt behold them all abiding in the same tabernacle, soaring in the same heaven, seated upon the same throne, uttering the same speech, and proclaiming the same Faith. Such is the unity of those Essences of being, those Luminaries of infinite and immeasurable splendour. Wherefore, should one of these Manifestations of Holiness proclaim saying: “I am the return of all the Prophets,” He verily speaketh the truth.

“Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.”

Christ taught he was the only way to understand god.

Muhammad taught to understand god is to go to him directly with my instructions.

These two prophets don't share the same goal or same soul. They have completely different missions that are not just relevant to that day but are still practiced today.

Combining these people just because they say they are prophets (excluding buddhism since maitraya is a bodhisattva not a buddha and sent to protect the Dharma that is absent of any creator) and making them from the same source with the same goal is an insult to all of these people.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes. It must be individual as well as collective transformation. Maybe at some point all our plans will coincide and we'll end up working together.

The problem with any collective transformation is who gets to decide on how we transform. That has to be at an individual level. Lots of groups think, "Well if everyone just listened to our way, the world would be at peace." That doesn't work, because even within so called harmonious groups, in-fighting occurs. So if the Bahai, or any other group did take over the world, unless everyone within it could drop their egos at the door, and stop thinking 'my way is the best' it'll never work. Various factions would naturally arise. This is because of the instinctive/intellectual level of mind. The collective mind needs to be operating on a superconscious level in order for any lasting peace to occur. And that won't happen because this world and this universe is still in the process of changing/evolving. There are young instinctive souls, and more mature older souls. The best one can do is change himself/herself.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Did you know Baha'u'llah's ancestry is from Abraham's wives Katurah and Sarah? He isn't just anywhere but is an actual descendent of Abraham. As well as a Descedent of Jesse.

Christianity teaches everyone are descendants of Abraham. Bahaullah is a person just as the rest of us.

Going from a Christian perspective which I keep saying not from your own, at least on RF.

With religion now I don't use any rituals or ceremonies to connect to God, just my heart and soul although I understand many people do feel they need visual aids but the danger is it can become idol worship.

Yes. I'm more referring to those who don't use them in idol worship. Many people accuse a whole set of people praying in front of statues as if they pray to statues like you say other people do. I've never heard someone say "Bless me marbel. I need you to help me with X so I can be a better person and sin no more."

I think misconceptions are taken to far.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Each manifestation of god (taking away Buddhism) is distinct and has their own truth. There is no linkage between one prophet ad another (though you showed me the diagram) but their individual religions and scriptures oppose each other.



Buddhism is the only one that has no god. The rest have different gods.

Christ doesn't have the same soul as Muhammad. They both taught to different things.





Christ taught he was the only way to understand god.

Muhammad taught to understand god is to go to him directly with my instructions.

These two prophets don't share the same goal or same soul. They have completely different missions that are not just relevant to that day but are still practiced today.

Combining these people just because they say they are prophets (excluding buddhism since maitraya is a bodhisattva not a buddha and sent to protect the Dharma that is absent of any creator) and making them from the same source with the same goal is an insult to all of these people.

In the world of names and limitations a lot of what you say is right but the spiritual world is timeless so all these things can apply to any of the Prophets as they are timeless and exist on a spiritual plane beyond time. They can all claim to be each other on a spiritual plane because it is timeless.

It is in the world of times and names they were distinct individuals with specific missions however spiritually all are on the same plane and from the same spiritual Source.

I know it's hard to accept the paradox but what pertains to the world of matter is not the same on the spiritual plane which is timeless and where names and individuality can interchange.

So on the spiritual,plane they are all each other. That is a realm beyond our understanding as we live in a world of time, names and limitations.

We have become so captured by material existence that we view everything, even spiritual things in terms of times, names and places when they are spiritual realities from a different and timeless plane. We need to try and understand these things in a spiritual context not an earthly one entirely or we shall remain confused and on,y see contradictions.

The world of the spirit knows no contradictions. That is a condition of the material world. Baha'u'llah is speaking of spiritual realities not physical things.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In the world of names and limitations a lot of what you say is right but the spiritual world is timeless so all these things can apply to any of the Prophets as they are timeless and exist on a spiritual plane beyond time. They can all claim to be each other on a spiritual plane because it is timeless.

It is in the world of times and names they were distinct individuals with specific missions however spiritually all are on the same plane and from the same spiritual Source.

I know it's hard to accept the paradox but what pertains to the world of matter is not the same on the spiritual plane which is timeless and where names and individuality can interchange.

So on the spiritual,plane they are all each other. That is a realm beyond our understanding as we live in a world of time, names and limitations.

We have become so captured by material existence that we view everything, even spiritual things in terms of times, names and places when they are spiritual realities from a different and timeless plane. We need to try and understand these things in a spiritual context not an earthly one entirely or we shall remain confused and on,y see contradictions.

The world of the spirit knows no contradictions. That is a condition of the material world. Baha'u'llah is speaking of spiritual realities not physical things.

Without the physical, it's like you're trying to describe an empty room without referring the the walls.

For example, many people are christian but don't practice in a denomination. They don't even associate themselves with the physical body of christ because they say it's all spiritual. Yet, in scripture (and in most cultural religious traditions before and today) the gathering of a body of people regardless the religion is a physical thing.

The every fact these religions are physical makes their spiritual nature conflict with each other.

I don't know how to explain it, really. The physical is essential when understanding spirituality. They work together. You can make god-faiths prophets all under one god if just doing it spiritually but these religions value physical TLC as well. It's part of their religion.

I mean, I have no connection with Hindu god statues and I understand it. The Quran does not mean anything to me spiritually and I understand the spiritual and physical nature of it just as I do the Bible and other books held sacred. They have a different aura to them that the copy of How to Cook Spaghetti just doesn't have.

Do you understand that?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Without the physical, it's like you're trying to describe an empty room without referring the the walls.

For example, many people are christian but don't practice in a denomination. They don't even associate themselves with the physical body of christ because they say it's all spiritual. Yet, in scripture (and in most cultural religious traditions before and today) the gathering of a body of people regardless the religion is a physical thing.

The every fact these religions are physical makes their spiritual nature conflict with each other.

I don't know how to explain it, really. The physical is essential when understanding spirituality. They work together. You can make god-faiths prophets all under one god if just doing it spiritually but these religions value physical TLC as well. It's part of their religion.

I mean, I have no connection with Hindu god statues and I understand it. The Quran does not mean anything to me spiritually and I understand the spiritual and physical nature of it just as I do the Bible and other books held sacred. They have a different aura to them that the copy of How to Cook Spaghetti just doesn't have.

Do you understand that?

The concept of the oneness of all the Manifestations doesn't exist physically because they were never on the earth at the same time physically but spiritually they were, are and forever will always one reality.

The example He uses with Muhammad saying He is Moses, Jesus, Noah and all the Prophets is trying to make a statement that there is a reality above the physical. That there is a reality where names, places and limitations dont matter. He is calling all humanity to that place where names and differences don't matter.

That the names are not what is important but the reality that is behind them that is what really matters.

That there is a reality above the murmur of syllables and sounds is what He is calling us to which we can unite on.

As more and more people become spiritually aware of this reality we will become more united. While we focus on our worldly differences we cannot have unity or peace.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The concept of the oneness of all the Manifestations doesn't exist physically because they were never on the earth at the same time physically but spiritually they were, are and forever will always one reality.

The example He uses with Muhammad saying He is Moses, Jesus, Noah and all the Prophets is trying to make a statement that there is a reality above the physical. That there is a reality where names, places and limitations dont matter. He is calling all humanity to that place where names and differences don't matter.

That the names are not what is important but the reality that is behind them that is what really matters.

That there is a reality above the murmur of syllables and sounds is what He is calling us to which we can unite on.

As more and more people become spiritually aware of this reality we will become more united. While we focus on our worldly differences we cannot have unity or peace.

Do you understand what I'm saying, though?

I don't agree that spiritual is separate than physical though I'm trying to explain it. Do you understand?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Do you understand what I'm saying, though?

I don't agree that spiritual is separate than physical though I'm trying to explain it. Do you understand?

We are not our body. We are a reality beyond that. When our body dies we do not. So you think the chariot and charioteer are one and the same?

All the martyrs who died gave up their bodies for something far greater. If the body were as important as the spirit or the same then they would never have consented to sacrifice themselves.