How are these Great Beings explained?

[loverofhumanity]

Without the physical, it's like you're trying to describe an empty room without referring the the walls.

For example, many people are christian but don't practice in a denomination. They don't even associate themselves with the physical body of christ because they say it's all spiritual. Yet, in scripture (and in most cultural religious traditions before and today) the gathering of a body of people regardless the religion is a physical thing.

The every fact these religions are physical makes their spiritual nature conflict with each other.

I don't know how to explain it, really. The physical is essential when understanding spirituality. They work together. You can make god-faiths prophets all under one god if just doing it spiritually but these religions value physical TLC as well. It's part of their religion.

I mean, I have no connection with Hindu god statues and I understand it. The Quran does not mean anything to me spiritually and I understand the spiritual and physical nature of it just as I do the Bible and other books held sacred. They have a different aura to them that the copy of How to Cook Spaghetti just doesn't have.

Do you understand that?

Yes I understand in this world they have an outward appearance but the inward reality is always there even when the body dies.

The spiritual world's exist although we only have been born into this one and have yet to experience them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Christianity teaches everyone are descendants of Abraham. Bahaullah is a person just as the rest of us.

Going from a Christian perspective which I keep saying not from your own, at least on RF.



Yes. I'm more referring to those who don't use them in idol worship. Many people accuse a whole set of people praying in front of statues as if they pray to statues like you say other people do. I've never heard someone say "Bless me marbel. I need you to help me with X so I can be a better person and sin no more."

I think misconceptions are taken to far.

Yes they use the statues as a medium but often then they can't pray without them and they become dependent on them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The problem with any collective transformation is who gets to decide on how we transform. That has to be at an individual level. Lots of groups think, "Well if everyone just listened to our way, the world would be at peace." That doesn't work, because even within so called harmonious groups, in-fighting occurs. So if the Bahai, or any other group did take over the world, unless everyone within it could drop their egos at the door, and stop thinking 'my way is the best' it'll never work. Various factions would naturally arise. This is because of the instinctive/intellectual level of mind. The collective mind needs to be operating on a superconscious level in order for any lasting peace to occur. And that won't happen because this world and this universe is still in the process of changing/evolving. There are young instinctive souls, and more mature older souls. The best one can do is change himself/herself.

Our collective hand can also be forced by events outside our control such as wars and things like that. Baha'u'llah had been urging the world over a hundred years ago to unite and form world bodies such as the UN but they ignored Him until they had a couple of world wars, then they saw the merit in it.

Now we still haven't established collectively an administrative organ that unitedly can banish war but events might probably force our hand to do it for our very survival.

Unfortunately not all nations believe in ahimsa and think aggression is the way to go. We hope that won't be the case and are trying to encourage tolerance and peace between nations, races and religions.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes they use the statues as a medium but often then they can't pray without them and they become dependent on them.

And just where are you getting this information from? Bahai sources I presume? How about asking a Hindu? Most Hindus I know can close their eyes anywhere and feel a connection to God. We have mantras and prayers right there in our heads. Yes the temple makes it easier, but dependence? That's a stretch.

It seems to me that Bahais are incredibly dependent on the words of their prophet.

 

[Vinayaka]

Our collective hand can also be forced by events outside our control such as wars and things like that. Baha'u'llah had been urging the world over a hundred years ago to unite and form world bodies such as the UN but they ignored Him until they had a couple of world wars, then they saw the merit in it.

So you're saying the forming of the UN, and the League of Nations before it was as a result of the political leaders listening to one Baha'u'llah? You have documentation for this I presume.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And just where are you getting this information from? Bahai sources I presume? How about asking a Hindu? Most Hindus I know can close their eyes anywhere and feel a connection to God. We have mantras and prayers right there in our heads. Yes the temple makes it easier, but dependence? That's a stretch.

It seems to me that Bahais are incredibly dependent on the words of their prophet.

I was speaking about Catholics as I used to be one. And I found things like holy water and the outward things did eventually become attachments to many in Catholicism.

 

[Vinayaka]

I was speaking about Catholics as I used to be one. And I found things like holy water and the outward things did eventually become attachments to many in Catholicism.

I was going off of Carlita's post #2458 where she is speaking of Hindu statues. But yes, its possible the Catholics do use their statues differently than Hindus.

Hindus also have holy water, sacred substances, and 'outward things' like prostrating. So you're okay with Hindus doing it but not Catholics? In terms of ritual mysticism, the only Christian churches that have the same inner connection to beings in the other worlds are Catholics, and the great Eastern Orthodox traditions. In fact, they're also the only Christians that also have a rich monastic tradition.

 

[Evie]

One of

If Bahaullah was this "new name" it would be a part of the Bible. There would be a linkage between the Jewish and NT scriptures without break. The Bible would have more about Bahaullah and not just reference to a Promised one and a "new name" that has not been said.

Where is Elam in the Bible as a place?

Did you actually pray to statues?

One of the Ten Commandments is: Thou shalt not make any graven image.'

 

[loverofhumanity]

So you're saying the forming of the UN, and the League of Nations before it was as a result of the political leaders listening to one Baha'u'llah? You have documentation for this I presume.

This Tablet was revealed in the mid 19th century by Baha'u'llah.

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written:

The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves.

Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …
(Baha'u'llah)

 

[loverofhumanity]

I was going off of Carlita's post #2458 where she is speaking of Hindu statues. But yes, its possible the Catholics do use their statues differently than Hindus.

Hindus also have holy water, sacred substances, and 'outward things' like prostrating. So you're okay with Hindus doing it but not Catholics? In terms of ritual mysticism, the only Christian churches that have the same inner connection to beings in the other worlds are Catholics, and the great Eastern Orthodox traditions. In fact, they're also the only Christians that also have a rich monastic tradition.

I can only comment on my own experience as a Catholic and that I found such practices were not in accordance with the teachings of Christ.

 

[Vinayaka]

This Tablet was revealed in the mid 19th century by Baha'u'llah.

"The Great Being, wishing to reveal the prerequisites of the peace and tranquillity of the world and the advancement of its peoples, hath written:

The time must come when the imperative necessity for the holding of a vast, an all-embracing assemblage of men will be universally realized. The rulers and kings of the earth must needs attend it, and, participating in its deliberations, must consider such ways and means as will lay the foundations of the world’s Great Peace amongst men. Such a peace demandeth that the Great Powers should resolve, for the sake of the tranquillity of the peoples of the earth, to be fully reconciled among themselves.

Should any king take up arms against another, all should unitedly arise and prevent him. If this be done, the nations of the world will no longer require any armaments, except for the purpose of preserving the security of their realms and of maintaining internal order within their territories. This will ensure the peace and composure of every people, government and nation. We fain would hope that the kings and rulers of the earth, the mirrors of the gracious and almighty name of God, may attain unto this station, and shield mankind from the onslaught of tyranny. …
(Baha'u'llah)

Just because he wrote something means that all these leaders actually read it? Now that is quite the jump. Please find me a quote that says something like this: "Having read the writings, of one Baha'u'llah. I have decided to join with others to form an international body between countries."

Lots of people were making such proposals, Certainly Baha'u'llah wasn't at all unique in this regard. Heck, you or I, if we were living at that time, could have proposed same. In fairness, I didn't read this entire document, but maybe there is some reference in there.

Milestones: 1914–1920 - Office of the Historian

 

[Vinayaka]

I can only comment on my own experience as a Catholic and that I found such practices were not in accordance with the teachings of Christ.

Yes, people have the right to interpret scripture any way they wish. Some take it as far as figuring they have the right to destroy all statues they see. My religion lost 100 000 temples to those people.

 

[Evie]

That's what my mother and all Catholics did. Every Catholic Church in Australia.

Catholic Statues

Whatever the initial reason, it eventually turned into idol worship where even now we hear of stories of statues crying etc

Statue of the Virgin Mary begins crying BLOOD | Daily Mail Online

People tend to get carried away with these things and my mind just doesn't accept it but people can believe what they want.

The thing about these statues is that nobody knows what Jesus, Mary and Joseph looked like so to make images which end up being worshipped are an insult to Jesus and the others. They probably looked entirely different so who really is being worshipped here? Some idea in the mind of a sculpturer is being worshipped.

And they do worship these statues. I know because I've seen it with my own eyes. But that's their right to do as they please. Much similar to the Jews and the golden calf. I find Christ in the Baha'i Faith but not in Christianity anymore. Just my opinion nothing more.

One of the Ten Commandments states. In brief. 'Thou shalt not make any graven image'. You can look up the full commandment.''

 

[loverofhumanity]

Just because he wrote something means that all these leaders actually read it? Now that is quite the jump. Please find me a quote that says something like this: "Having read the writings, of one Baha'u'llah. I have decided to join with others to form an international body between countries."

Lots of people were making such proposals, Certainly Baha'u'llah wasn't at all unique in this regard. Heck, you or I, if we were living at that time, could have proposed same. In fairness, I didn't read this entire document, but maybe there is some reference in there.

Milestones: 1914–1920 - Office of the Historian

Woodrow Wilson had extensive exposure to the Baha'i Teachings as his daughter was a student of the Faith but beyond that all we can say is he was greatly influenced by the Baha'i Teachings but did not directly say it.

Nevertheless Abdu’l-Bahá and later his grandson, Shoghi Effendi, praised Wilson. Shoghi Effendi wrote:

“To [America’s] President, the immortal Woodrow Wilson, must be ascribed the unique honor, among the statesmen of any nation, whether of the East or of the West, of having voiced sentiments so akin to the principles animating the Cause of Bahá’u'lláh, and of having more than any other world leader, contributed to the creation of the League of Nations — achievements which the pen of the Center of God’s Covenant acclaimed as signalizing the dawn of the Most Great Peace...”

 

[loverofhumanity]

One of the Ten Commandments states. In brief. 'Thou shalt not make any graven image'. You can look up the full commandment.''

Yes so I thought it strange as a Catholic as I became more aware of these commandments, why we had statues at all. At that point I began questioning what we were actually being taught. Was it the teachings of the Bible or man made dogmas?

I later decided it wasn't for me but I respect it if others choose it that's their right.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yes, people have the right to interpret scripture any way they wish. Some take it as far as figuring they have the right to destroy all statues they see. My religion lost 100 000 temples to those people.

100,000 temples destroyed? Where and when was that?

 

[Evie]

And just where are you getting this information from? Bahai sources I presume? How about asking a Hindu? Most Hindus I know can close their eyes anywhere and feel a connection to God. We have mantras and prayers right there in our heads. Yes the temple makes it easier, but dependence? That's a stretch.

It seems to me that Bahais are incredibly dependent on the words of their prophet.

Like the Seven Day Adventists and their 'prophet' Ellen White. A book called The White Lie questioned her claims.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

We are not our body. We are a reality beyond that. When our body dies we do not. So you think the chariot and charioteer are one and the same?

If talking about religion, yes. Do you understand why I see it that way logically and spiritually?

All the martyrs who died gave up their bodies for something far greater. If the body were as important as the spirit or the same then they would never have consented to sacrifice themselves.

I can't speak for martyr because I don't agree with needing to die for a religious cause. Since body and spirit are joined, when you take the body, you are harming the spirit's health as well. So, the best we can do is live in body and spirit here on earth as they compliment each other.

Do you understand spiritually what I am saying?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes they use the statues as a medium but often then they can't pray without them and they become dependent on them.

It's dependency. It''s not praying to statues it's just depending on an object to help them spiritually. For example, I have pictures of my grandmothers and great grandmother and family etc. The pictures in and of themselves do nothing (they don't cry or anything like that). However, that space in which I place these pictures, and so forth, and talking in front of the pictures brings me at peace. Anyone can say I am praying to the pictures all because I see them as important. However, like when I prayed in front of the statue of Mary I didn't see a block of marble but in my mind and spirit, it was the Mother of Christ. I wasn't raised religious so I don't have an object-dependency such as the Gohonzon, candles, Eucharist, and so forth.

But after experiencing it, I know the difference between praying-to and praying in-front-of.

All in all, Catholicism does not teach praying to statues. I see people rub Jesus feet. My mother did it when I was in the hospital. They have this huge Jesus statue in the middle of the room. I swear twice that size it would be almost as tall as Statue of Liberty. She's not christian.

So, objects mean things to people and it is physical and spiritual that co-exist.

Whether you disagree or agree isn't my point. Do you understand?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One of

One of the Ten Commandments is: Thou shalt not make any graven image.'

How does this connect to my post?

Do you actually think people pray to statues????