How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

You keep telling me what you believe. Do you understand what I believe?

My understanding your faith and reading what the different prophets wrote won't change my experience and knowledge. I'm trying to learn about why you see the things you do but I'm just asking for conversation on whether you understand what I'm saying.

You don't see how you can walk, talk, hear and speak without using you eyes, ears, tongue or feet?

Your brain controls a lot of things. It's a medical fact.

Tahirih met the Bab in a dream and became His follower in it but never actually met Him personally. She dreamt of His Words in a dream, then when she read them in the waking world she automatically accepted Him.

I had outer body experiences before. I don't call them spiritual. I didn't "meet god" nor did I get a feeling that there is "something more" or greater. It was just an outer body experience.

Synchronicity and coincidences are some of the cornerstones of religious faith. It's all wrapped in superstition. Traditions and practices that are done for spiritual benefit even though they can't be proven physically.

Nothing wrong with that. I don't call it spiritual vs. physical. They are one and the same. Do you understand?

The resurrection of Christ was an actual vision not a physical reality as was the spiritual vision on Mount Tabor.

That is your belief. That's not christian scripture and definitely not mainstream christianity. You need a physical person to be physically resurrected and physically saved.

If I'm drowning in the water, any person can reach their hand down and grab me. But what you're saying is that that person is only a symbol and I can get myself out by grabbing onto an invisible hand.

Christianity does not see it that way.

And you are saying dreams and visions are irrelevant? Strange indeed.

No. I'm saying they in themselves aren't spiritual. The bible isn't spiritual. The pictures of my grandmother isn't spiritual.

It's the meaning we place on it that makes it relevant or not.

I do not separate the two.

Understand?

 

[loverofhumanity]

The prophets in God's Written Word are to be believed and accepted because the ARE in the Written Word. And any argument as to the books of the Bible being put together by human hand in assembling the Bible as we have it is not a valid argument. Because God would have caused His Bible to exist in the way it exists. No human could have put in or kept out anything Unintended by God. This is the absolute core belief which God looks for in those who claim to be believers in His Word. The Living Word. Jesus. The Written Word. Do not add to it or diminish from it.

Definitely but diverse and conflicting are it's interpretations.

 

[CG Didymus]

I

I have to wonder what God the Father of Jesus thinks. He watched the beaten bleeding body of His Son nailed to one of His own trees. Do you think He is pleased when prayers are directed to Mary instead of His Son who endured such frightful abuse?

I was away for the weekend, and I'm just now catching up. For non-Christians the difficulties are that men wrote the NT. Christians added it to part of the Jewish Scriptures. Jesus wrote nothing. Men had to decide which books to put in the NT. Men had to interpret what those things meant. Protestants can easily say the Catholics messed up.

However, how are Protestants doing? Lots of interpretations in a lot of denominations. And a lot of big time leaders getting caught messing around. So like Jesus said to the guys wanting to stone the prostitute... the one without sin cast the first stone. And that other thing he said about removing the log out of your own eye before you go trying to remove a splinter in someone else's. Nobody's perfect and to have Christian versus Christian is a horrible witness for those of us that on the side lines watching.

The Baha'i Faith is trying to unite all the religions. Heck, Christianity can't even unite itself.

 

[Dawnofhope]

If going by "science" there is a difference between belief and facts.

Good to see science becoming part of discussions and the distinction between facts and beliefs.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You keep telling me what you believe. Do you understand what I believe?

My understanding your faith and reading what the different prophets wrote won't change my experience and knowledge. I'm trying to learn about why you see the things you do but I'm just asking for conversation on whether you understand what I'm saying.


Your brain controls a lot of things. It's a medical fact.



I had outer body experiences before. I don't call them spiritual. I didn't "meet god" nor did I get a feeling that there is "something more" or greater. It was just an outer body experience.

Synchronicity and coincidences are some of the cornerstones of religious faith. It's all wrapped in superstition. Traditions and practices that are done for spiritual benefit even though they can't be proven physically.

Nothing wrong with that. I don't call it spiritual vs. physical. They are one and the same. Do you understand?



That is your belief. That's not christian scripture and definitely not mainstream christianity. You need a physical person to be physically resurrected and physically saved.

If I'm drowning in the water, any person can reach their hand down and grab me. But what you're saying is that that person is only a symbol and I can get myself out by grabbing onto an invisible hand.

Christianity does not see it that way.



No. I'm saying they in themselves aren't spiritual. The bible isn't spiritual. The pictures of my grandmother isn't spiritual.

It's the meaning we place on it that makes it relevant or not.

I do not separate the two.

Understand?

You don't seem to accept anything exists outside the senses or nature. Where does love come from? Neurons?

You see a person homeless. You feel compassion. Where is the outward physical compassion? Isn't it an inward feeling we can 'attach' to a deed or not attach to a deed? It is an inward feeling first then we decide to act or not on it so compassion can exist without a physical event.

You can feel love, compassion and a host of other things without a physical expression.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Good to see science becoming part of discussions and the distinction between facts and beliefs.

I'm not a "science-atheist" debater. Since science (which I haven't build a good definition) and spirituality is one and the same, the Bahai view (and all religions who separate spirit from physical word) does not make sense to me.

I can't remember who I said this to, but it's like trying to describe space of an empty room without referring to the walls.

Other religions who have different colored walls at least know they exist to differentiate one "empty space" or truth from the room next to them. If you disregard the walls, of course everything would look like they share the same space.

You need them both.

I mean, I looked on the Bahai site and it says you don't do any rituals or have any traditions in your faith. It talks about dogma as if it is bad. It sounds more of an objection to tradition (maybe Islam?) rather than a faith onto itself. More of a political stance rather than a religion.

 

[CG Didymus]

The prophets in God's Written Word are to be believed and accepted because the ARE in the Written Word. And any argument as to the books of the Bible being put together by human hand in assembling the Bible as we have it is not a valid argument. Because God would have caused His Bible to exist in the way it exists. No human could have put in or kept out anything Unintended by God. This is the absolute core belief which God looks for in those who claim to be believers in His Word. The Living Word. Jesus. The Written Word. Do not add to it or diminish from it.

Like I said, I'm catching up, so this post relates to my last one to you. So... who wrote chapter 16 in Mark? Why isn't it in the oldest manuscripts? If it is the word of God and Jesus says that his followers will pick up serpents and drink poison, then do you believe that?

Now the Jewish Scriptures... How long is God's Law to last? 'Til the time of Jesus or forever? Do you keep the Sabbath? If not, where in God's Word did Jesus say not to? Sure something is mentioned in Paul's writings, but doesn't God also say to kept the Sabbath forever too?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

You don't seem to accept anything exists outside the senses or nature. Where does love come from? Neurons?

They are one and the same.

Understand?

You see a person homeless. You feel compassion. Where is the outward physical compassion? Isn't it an inward feeling we can 'attach' to a deed or not attach to a deed? It is an inward feeling first then we decide to act or not on it so compassion can exist without a physical event.

The inward means nothing without the outward. I can feel compassion all I want but if I don't help the homeless, that compassion is like having a crush and realizing you two aren't compatible when you decide to actually act to get to know each other. Stuck on infatuation.

Compassion is an action. Without the action, what exactly is compassion?

I have a lot of feelings but if I'm depressed in order for it to be considered depression it's more than just the blues. There are physical symptoms and physical thoughts (thoughts are physical given the information transmitted by neurons in the brain) that make what we call depression, depression.

Love isn't a feeling of its own. What is love if you aren't acting and no physical association of what you call love and another person calls it something else (that is not love at all)?

Do you understand me?

You can feel love, compassion and a host of other things without a physical expression.

No. The love, compassion, and host of other things are within physical expression.

If that be the case, you can have a relationship with me just by thinking it, have a date, marriage, and die together without my saying a word or expressing similar appropriate feelings.

Christianity teaches love through actions. When one body comes together christ is present. The verbs are actions not isolated feelings.

Understand?

 

[CG Didymus]

According to the Baha'i Writings, the Manifestations of God are sinless. The story in the Bible we found not believe it to be a true story but to teach us certain lessons.

“The account of Adam and Eve, their eating from the tree, and their expulsion from Paradise are therefore symbols and divine mysteries. They have all-embracing meanings and marvellous interpretations, but only the intimates of the divine mysteries and the well-favoured of the all-sufficing Lord are aware of the true significance of these symbols.”

Bahá, Abdu’l. “Some Answered Questions.

Whether it myth or legend, still the Bible is the story of the Jewish people. So where does real history start in the Bible? Creation... symbolic The Flood... symbolic. How about Abraham? Crossing the Red Sea? People getting thrown into a furnace and not getting burned? Real or all symbolic?

Oh, you might as well give me the Baha'i interpretation of the Battle of Armageddon too.

 

[CG Didymus]

God is sad and offended that you pray to Mary. I know I would be if my son went through what Jesus did only to observe someone else being venerated and prayed to. One day you will sense God's sadness. I know I do. I consider Jesus broken and bleeding body nailed to the cross and I picture people bowing and praying to Mary. This is exactly how God would be viewing it. And my certainty comes from knowing that it is absolutely not Biblical. And that is something that is truth. And truth cannot be denied.

Well, I'm up to page 112 and I'm wondering... Do you know that the OP is saying that all the founders of the major religions are one? And from the same God? If that is true, then God and Jesus are crying because Christians haven't recognized his return in the person of Baha'u'llah. The Catholics are small potatoes. Let's hear what you think of the claims of the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Evie]

R

Such 'swelling words' are used often by those endeavouring to seduce human minds into believing something. Something which more than likely is more beneficial to the speaker than the hearers who believe the words.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, I'm up to page 112 and I'm wondering... Do you know that the OP is saying that all the founders of the major religions are one? And from the same God? If that is true, then God and Jesus are crying because Christians haven't recognized his return in the person of Baha'u'llah. The Catholics are small potatoes. Let's hear what you think of the claims of the Baha'i Faith.

Haha. That's what's been said for the first generation of rounds on this thread that it doesn't match up.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

God is sad and offended that you pray to Mary. I know I would be if my son went through what Jesus did only to observe someone else being venerated and prayed to. One day you will sense God's sadness. I know I do. I consider Jesus broken and bleeding body nailed to the cross and I picture people bowing and praying to Mary. This is exactly how God would be viewing it. And my certainty comes from knowing that it is absolutely not Biblical. And that is something that is truth. And truth cannot be denied.

Catholicism is about God's sadness. If you've ever gone through his passion, to many Catholics, it's a tearjerker.

What you're saying is because Mary is spirit she no longer has rights to talk with people as she did when she had a body?

What does her life on earth and life in heaven have any affect on her communication with a believer?

How does physical death invalidate the communication between the body of christ?

 

[Evie]

Catholicism is about God's sadness. If you've ever gone through his passion, to many Catholics, it's a tearjerker.

What you're saying is because Mary is spirit she no longer has rights to talk with people as she did when she had a body?

What does her life on earth and life in heaven have any affect on her communication with a believer?

How does physical death invalidate the communication between the body of christ?

Totally unbiblical to pray to Mary. Show me even one word in the Written Word which says so. Jesus, when told His mother and brothers a d sisters were there and wanted to speak to Him. He did not even accord them their desire. Not even Mary caused Him to turn aside to talk to her.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I'm good with the Catholic Church having reverence for the family of Christ and praying to Mary. I do struggle with praying to statues of Mary and Jesus and praying to them. I suppose these statues are symbolic and in some way represent the actual Mary and Jesus. The OT writers were not keen on making images or idols of the Divine.

When I practiced, it was more using the statues as memory and reflection tools for lack of better words in order to connect with christ and his father.

It had nothing to do with the cement or block of marble. If Catholics prayed to statues, then you can just set an uncarved block of cement and ask a Catholic to pray to Mary and it should have the same effect since you're focused on the statue and not what the statue represents.

Symbolic? For this instance only, I'd use that term. Only because Catholicism doesn't teach praying to statues. I assume if one does, it's an individual thing not a Catholic-thing.

The issue with "creating images" was when the OT people created them, they one created it as if they knew god's face and two they worshiped it. Catholics only did the first part. The latter just is silly. No Church will tell you they pray to cement or marble.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Praying to Mary isn't forbidden in the Bible. It's not there to begin with.

Totally unbiblical to pray to Mary. Show me even one word in the Written Word which says so. Jesus, when told His mother and brothers a d sisters were there and wanted to speak to Him. He did not even accord them their desire. Not even Mary caused Him to turn aside to talk to her.

How does physical death invalidate communication between the body of christ?

 

[Dawnofhope]

I'm not a "science-atheist" debater.

I never thought you were. However science and reason are an essential part of the world we live in, so any belief system in the modern world needs to meaningfully accommodate science and reason IMHO.

Since science (which I haven't build a good definition) and spirituality is one and the same, the Bahai view (and all religions who separate spirit from physical word) does not make sense to me.

One part of science that relates to deductive reasoning by which we can work out whether something is true or false, right or wrong, or practically works or does not.

Deductive reasoning - Wikipedia

The nature of the world we live in concerns us all, and we can consider this from the perspective of science or religion or both. So I don't think there is anything to mysterious here.

Baha'is, like Christians, believe in a God that is an unknowable essence therefore we need the Manifestation Christ/Baha'u'llah to help us know and worship God Who is integral to our purpose in life. We also believe in a soul continues on after life in this physical realm is over. Is that what doesn't make sense?

I can't remember who I said this to, but it's like trying to describe space of an empty room without referring to the walls.

It helps to have the walls but we can imagine space without walls too.

Other religions who have different colored walls at least know they exist to differentiate one "empty space" or truth from the room next to them. If you disregard the walls, of course everything would look like they share the same space.

You need them both.

We all share the atmosphere. That is important shared space. No walls needed for that. Is there a problem applying the same principle to religion?

I mean, I looked on the Bahai site and it says you don't do any rituals or have any traditions in your faith. It talks about dogma as if it is bad. It sounds more of an objection to tradition (maybe Islam?) rather than a faith onto itself. More of a political stance rather than a religion.

I think its making sense of the words. Of course we have traditions and beliefs (that could be likened to dogma) in the Baha'i Faith. The use of the word dogma in the dictionary:

1.
an official system of principles or tenets concerning faith, morals, behavior, etc., as of a church.
Synonyms: doctrine, teachings, set of beliefs, philosophy.
2.
a specific tenet or doctrine authoritatively laid down, as by a church: the dogma of the Assumption;
the recently defined dogma of papal infallibility.
Synonyms: tenet, canon, law.
3.
prescribed doctrine proclaimed as unquestionably true by a particular group:
the difficulty of resisting political dogma.
4.
a settled or established opinion, belief, or principle:
the classic dogma of objectivity in scientific observation.
Synonyms: conviction, certainty.

I think for Baha'is it is simply separating man made traditions that have outlived their usefulness, as opposed to that which is truly instructed by God.

The doctrine of original sin and the belief that Jesus is God in the flesh are a couple of examples of church dogma that have outlived their usefulness.

Nice talking to you again.

 

[Evie]

When I practiced, it was more using the statues as memory and reflection tools for lack of better words in order to connect with christ and his father.

It had nothing to do with the cement or block of marble. If Catholics prayed to statues, then you can just set an uncarved block of cement and ask a Catholic to pray to Mary and it should have the same effect since you're focused on the statue and not what the statue represents.

Symbolic? For this instance only, I'd use that term. Only because Catholicism doesn't teach praying to statues. I assume if one does, it's an individual thing not a Catholic-thing.

The issue with "creating images" was when the OT people created them, they one created it as if they knew god's face and two they worshiped it. Catholics only did the first part. The latter just is silly. No Church will tell you they pray to cement or marble.

Isaiah. 44: 9 & 10. State: 'They that make a graven image are all of them vanity, and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know, that they may be ashamed. Who hath formed a God. Or molten a graven image that is profitable for nothing.'

 

[Evie]

Totally unbiblical to pray to Mary. Show me even one word in the Written Word which says so. Jesus, when told His mother and brothers a d sisters were there and wanted to speak to Him. He did not even accord them their desire. Not even Mary caused Him to turn aside to talk to her.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Also, people in the bible who created images did so with the motive of worship and they felt they knew god's face (so they felt they "were god") hence why they were punished.

Catholics, I read Orthodox Catholics say god and the sacraments (and so forth) are considered "mysteries." I haven't heard a Roman Catholic nor priest say that Jesus statue was a representation of the real christ or is christ.

Statues have no significance in Catholic worship/doctrine. It all focuses on the sacraments of christ and the Eucharist that brings everyone together so that christ is present.

Statue worship is the most silliest argument against the church I ever heard.