How are these Great Beings explained?

[paarsurrey]

No they don't, but from an outsider's POV, they sure look like it. Certainly that's where their origins lie. Baha'u'llah was a Muslim. The quarrel they have with previous religions seems to be mostly with Islam.

If he claimed to be a Muslim , did not say anything repugnant to it, and the Baha'is/Bahaism also endorse it.
Regards

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I

did not say you actually see Jesus. But a Catholic I know said that the changing is believed. That the bread and wine are His body and blood. I know it sounds strange.

If it were literal, you would actually see jesus.

The Eucharist is the life and death (crucifiction and resurrection) a catholic experiences when they all come together in his name and bring christ present through the body/church/mass.

Its literal because there is literal consecrated bread and wine, liteal meal, literal mass or sermon, communing in a litteral group of like minded worshipers.

What about death invalidates communication between the body of christ?

Who is resurrected when you die and your spirit no longer exists?

 

[Evie]

If it were literal, you would actually see jesus.

The Eucharist is the life and death (crucifiction and resurrection) a catholic experiences when they all come together in his name and bring christ present through the body/church/mass.

Its literal because there is literal consecrated bread and wine, liteal meal, literal mass or sermon, communing in a litteral group of like minded worshipers.

What about death invalidates communication between the body of christ?

Who is resurrected when you die and your spirit no longer exists?

The spirit lives on, not the physical. Scripture states: 'there is no male and female, all are one in Christ.' A quick google will get the exact scripture. It is Galations. 3: 28

 

[Vinayaka]

If he claimed to be a Muslim , did not say anything repugnant to it, and the Baha'is/Bahaism also endorse it.
Regards

I don't think I said he claimed be be a Muslim, just that he was born a Muslim. What he claimed was that He was the final manifestation for a thousand years. Greater than Jesus, greater than Muhammed, greater than Moses, because he was all 3 and more.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But the Bahais don't hold that Bahaism is a reform movement within Islam/Quran/Muhammad. Do they? If yes, please quote from their core/original sources.
Anybody, please
Regards

They believe that Muhammad is a manefisation of god:

The Imams of Twelver Shi'ism, that is, the Prophet's son-in-law 'Ali Ibn Ali Talib and his eleven descendants, also seem to have taught that God is beyond conceptualization. When the fifth Imam, Muhammad Baqir (d. 735/6), was asked by a believer whether it is permissible to attempt to imagine God as an entity, he is said to have replied that this is allowed only if one imagined Him as an entity that is beyond reason and unlimited.[6] The Imam thus taught that God is indeed an entity. But He is, as later Imami Shi'i theologians were to formulate it, an entity unlike other entities.[7] Bahá'u'lláh amplified the teachings of the Imams and of Shi'i tradition in this respect.​

Bahai-Library Online

They feel that the teachings of Muhammad (and other prophets) are only applicable for that day but only the prophets of Bahai are relevant for interpretation of past prophet teachings

Each Manifestation may be seen as a skilled physician. He has a complete grasp of the nature of the body of humanity and is able to prescribe the appropriate cure for the ills of the world—one that best meets the requirements of the time in which He appears. Referring to His own Revelation in this age, Bahá’u’lláh wrote, “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy.”5 Bahai.org
​

So, jesus, krishna, muhammad, buddha, and christ are all manifestations of god. The recent one is Baha'u'llah.

Throughout the ages, humanity’s spiritual, intellectual and moral capacities have been cultivated by the Founders of the great religions, among them Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and—in more recent times—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.​

They believe that god prophesied Bahuallah's appearance and that because it's an interpretation from god (and presumably the same god as Muslims, Christians, Hindu, and Jews) all are in line with each other in a progression of revelations.

They did this by Bahaullah making all religions one:

Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá'u'lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. He has uplifted the standard of the oneness of faith and the honour of humanity in the centre of the world. Today we must gather round it, and try with heart and soul to bring about the union of mankind.​

(Abdu'l-Bahá, Abdu'l-Bahá in London, p. 43)

So basically, in the first generation of posts on these threads I and other @Vinayaka where trying to get Bahai to understand the conflict between Hindu and Bahai teachings. I tried explaining the difference between Buddhism and Christianity. A few say they are christians but identify as Bahai. Yet, all the religions (in one post) possess the same "essense" of love and compassion that everyone is supposed to have. Yet, this is defined not by all religions that they want unity with but a selective revealed religions that interpret everyone else's religions to take out war and crime etc and be at peace.

The fundamental truth of the Manifestations is peace. This underlies all religion, all justice. The divine purpose is that men should live in unity, concord and agreement and should love one another.​

(Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'í World Faith - Abdu'l-Bahá Section, p. 245)

The problem with Buddhism and Christianity is that Buddhism doesn't have a god so there and Maitreya (one of their revealed prophets) is not a buddha as said but a bodhisattva. In addition, Buddhism talks about not following gods (specifically Hindu) but one's own mind and understanding.

Christianity is not an universalist faith. So, if all doesn't come through Christ without other prophets outside the Bible, one is not christian and does not hold christian teachings. Bahai disagree but their focus is different and doesn't correlate with christianity.

Hindu Krishna is a god in his own right and an incarnation of Vishnu. We've asked if god can be a manifestation of god but no one has answered. Other than that, I dont know much about Hinduism to say much more.

So in the Quran, does it support Bahaullah being the last prophet and promised one for this time period that Muhammad only revealed in his own?​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The spirit lives on, not the physical. Scripture states: 'there is no male and female, all are one in Christ.' A quick google will get the exact scripture. It is Galations. 3: 28

How is the spirit after death before judgement different than the spirit on earth other than our bodies? How does our bodies invalidate the nature of the spirit before and after death when jesus hasn't returned?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@paarsurrey

Also, they believe "All the Manifestations of God came with the same purpose, and they have all sought to lead men into the paths of virtue."
(Abdu'l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 120)

Did Muhammad came with the same purpose as Christ, Krishna, Zoroaster, Maitreya, or Moses?

 

[paarsurrey]

They believe that Muhammad is a manefisation of god:

The Imams of Twelver Shi'ism, that is, the Prophet's son-in-law 'Ali Ibn Ali Talib and his eleven descendants, also seem to have taught that God is beyond conceptualization. When the fifth Imam, Muhammad Baqir (d. 735/6), was asked by a believer whether it is permissible to attempt to imagine God as an entity, he is said to have replied that this is allowed only if one imagined Him as an entity that is beyond reason and unlimited.[6] The Imam thus taught that God is indeed an entity. But He is, as later Imami Shi'i theologians were to formulate it, an entity unlike other entities.[7] Bahá'u'lláh amplified the teachings of the Imams and of Shi'i tradition in this respect.​

Bahai-Library Online

They feel that the teachings of Muhammad (and other prophets) are only applicable for that day but only the prophets of Bahai are relevant for interpretation of past prophet teachings

Each Manifestation may be seen as a skilled physician. He has a complete grasp of the nature of the body of humanity and is able to prescribe the appropriate cure for the ills of the world—one that best meets the requirements of the time in which He appears. Referring to His own Revelation in this age, Bahá’u’lláh wrote, “The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy.”5 Bahai.org
​

So, jesus, krishna, muhammad, buddha, and christ are all manifestations of god. The recent one is Baha'u'llah.

Throughout the ages, humanity’s spiritual, intellectual and moral capacities have been cultivated by the Founders of the great religions, among them Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus Christ, Muhammad, and—in more recent times—the Báb and Bahá’u’lláh.​

They believe that god prophesied Bahuallah's appearance and that because it's an interpretation from god (and presumably the same god as Muslims, Christians, Hindu, and Jews) all are in line with each other in a progression of revelations.

They did this by Bahaullah making all religions one:

Then all disputes would disappear, all then would be united. Bahá'u'lláh came for this purpose. He has made the three religions one. He has uplifted the standard of the oneness of faith and the honour of humanity in the centre of the world. Today we must gather round it, and try with heart and soul to bring about the union of mankind.​

(Abdu'l-Bahá, Abdu'l-Bahá in London, p. 43)

So basically, in the first generation of posts on these threads I and other @Vinayaka where trying to get Bahai to understand the conflict between Hindu and Bahai teachings. I tried explaining the difference between Buddhism and Christianity. A few say they are christians but identify as Bahai. Yet, all the religions (in one post) possess the same "essense" of love and compassion that everyone is supposed to have. Yet, this is defined not by all religions that they want unity with but a selective revealed religions that interpret everyone else's religions to take out war and crime etc and be at peace.

The fundamental truth of the Manifestations is peace. This underlies all religion, all justice. The divine purpose is that men should live in unity, concord and agreement and should love one another.​

(Abdu'l-Bahá, Bahá'í World Faith - Abdu'l-Bahá Section, p. 245)

The problem with Buddhism and Christianity is that Buddhism doesn't have a god so there and Maitreya (one of their revealed prophets) is not a buddha as said but a bodhisattva. In addition, Buddhism talks about not following gods (specifically Hindu) but one's own mind and understanding.

Christianity is not an universalist faith. So, if all doesn't come through Christ without other prophets outside the Bible, one is not christian and does not hold christian teachings. Bahai disagree but their focus is different and doesn't correlate with christianity.

Hindu Krishna is a god in his own right and an incarnation of Vishnu. We've asked if god can be a manifestation of god but no one has answered. Other than that, I dont know much about Hinduism to say much more.

So in the Quran, does it support Bahaullah being the last prophet and promised one for this time period that Muhammad only revealed in his own?

Nothing is mentioned from Quran (in the above post), the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam/Muhammad, so Bahaism is not from within Islam. Right? Please
Regards

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Nothing is mentioned from Quran (in the above post), the first and the foremost source of guidance of Islam/Muhammad, so Bahaism is not from within Islam. Right? Please
Regards

I wouldn't think so. The only religion I know is Christianity and some of Buddhism. However, instead of taking second and third opinion, I prefer to ask a Muslim.

 

[paarsurrey]

@paarsurrey

Also, they believe "All the Manifestations of God came with the same purpose, and they have all sought to lead men into the paths of virtue."
(Abdu'l-Bahá, Paris Talks, p. 120)

Did Muhammad came with the same purpose as Christ, Krishna, Zoroaster, Maitreya, or Moses?

The purpose is mentioned in the first chapter of Quran:

[1:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[1:2] All praise belongs to Allah, Lord of all the worlds,
[1:3] The Gracious, the Merciful
[1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[1:5] Thee alone do we worship and Thee alone do we implore for help.
[1:6] Guide us in the right path —
[1:7] The path of those on whom Thou hast bestowed Thy blessings, those who have not incurred Thy displeasure, and those who have not gone astray.
_______

Please
Regards

 

[CG Didymus]

I

I wonder if you realise how you sound. Whatever religion you are representative of, if you are an example, it would be best avoided.

Evie, I don't know how that post started with a reply to you. It was meant for Vinayaka and Loverofhumanity.

It is obvious you wouldn't think it funny at all, but, unfortunately, a lot of people do make fun of Christianity. [Warning, sarcastic remark coming] Gee, I don't know why?

 

[CG Didymus]

T


They added the immaculate conception, if Im correct. They took out wine and just give bread saying the bread or wine is fine for taking both. Only during holidays both are given here. Further south of me both are given in all a parishes. So i guess it depends on parish finances. The parish here said they couldnt afford both.

A lot of people were upset with the change. I cant thinknof any others.

Thanks, I think maybe doing less things in Latin might also be one of the changes.

 

[CG Didymus]

After Muhammad only such prophet could come who has Quran as the first and the foremost source of guidance as the Quran has all the lasting teachings of guidance in it suited to all ages after Muhammad. It is one aspect of the title khatam-an-nabiyyeen given to Muhammad by God.
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad -The Promised Messiah , Imam Mahdi, the End Times Reformer of All-Revealed-Religions 1835-1908 is as such and in these meanings a Successor-Prophet-Messenger of Muhammad and not a new-one.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has therefore brought no new Revealed Book of Law from God, he is a successor of Muhammad and obeys the teachings of Quran and Acts/Sunnah of Muhammad.

Regards

So how do you interpret the claims of Baha'u'llah?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Good to know. The scriptures let you know which manifestations are false and which are true. The scriptures you are referring to also tell me I'm going to hell. So is it fair to assume, since you believe in the 'holy scriptures' that you also believe that I will suffer an eternity in hell?

I don't follow that interpretation. Hell to us means remoteness from God and heaven is nearness to God. So if you are near to God you are in a state of heaven not hell.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Virtues, if you like, are deeds. Do you understand?

No. These things exist first in the spirit then manifest themselves physically or outwardly. They are an inner state first which may or may not be manifested in a deed depending upon the person making the decision.

I may feel compassionate for a murderer but in the end decide that justice must be shown him otherwise mercy would make him worse.

 

[Vinayaka]

I don't follow that interpretation. Hell to us means remoteness from God and heaven is nearness to God. So if you are near to God you are in a state of heaven not hell.

Sorry. I forgot that you just interpret 'scripture' whichever way that suits the Bahai agenda. I was falsely assuming that since you say you accept scripture, you'd accept all of it, not just the parts that agree with Bahai. My bad. Poor memory.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No. These things exist first in the spirit then manifest themselves physically or outwardly. They are an inner state first which may or may not be manifested in a deed depending upon the person making the decision.

I may feel compassionate for a murderer but in the end decide that justice must be shown him otherwise mercy would make him worse.

No you dont understand or no you dont agree?

For me, I cant feel love without action. I can make myself feel many emotions and attribute it to compassion and love but it doesnt mean anything unless it becomes (and Is) an expression.

I dont agree you can have love without action. Define love in basic terms.

I can describe it but physical and spiritual go together with me. Describe spiritual love and compassion absent of actions and expression.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I may feel compassionate for a murderer but in the end decide that justice must be shown him otherwise mercy would make him worse.

How do you feel compassionate for a murderer you want to be punished or find justice decided as his consequence?

That's like my saying to a homeless person. "I have compassion for you" and walk by him feeling an "umph" in my heart that I felt something and that is all I need. When compassion is the actual action of doing something for the homeless person. It means nothing without the action.

They are embedded in each other not the result of one another.

1st. You have to understand how action is embedded in compassion.

Once you understand that, then

2nd, you are further towards understanding how physical and spiritual co-exist.

and a bonus if you next understand how Catholics experience compassion via physical objects.

Right now, though, you can't feel compassionate for a murderer if there is no action that expresses your compassion. What you are doing is displaying sympathy not compassion nor is that unconditional love of any form. Many people feel sympathy and try to feel empathy for a murderer if they come out of their shell and see another person's shoes.

Not many people have compassion because they think it's a "feeling" that is somehow greater and they can't reach it.

Catholics go beyond just feeling. The action or charity is without reservation without justice.

Good example. Sex vs. Intimacy within a marriage.

When a couple has sex they are just exchanging their bodies with each other. It's not personal. It's just, well, sex.

Intimacy isn't just staring at each other in bed the day after the wedding. It's not just a feeling. It's an action. That joining between male and male, for example, consummated that marriage beyond just sex. That action is unconditional love, compassion, and inner love for that mate. It binds the two people together.

What you're saying is more of a platonic marriage where both spouses don't need to touch each other to love each other. Basically, both spouses can stand in separate closest in the dark and feel the love.

But what is that love they are feeling?

What is the definition behind that love if it is not consummated as many people feel marriage involves?

Action goes beyond the heart. While Bahaullah may dissect action from compassion, most religions, christianity included, do not. If you don't "get it" you won't understand how physical and spiritual go hand in hand not an expression of the other. One isn't "above" and the other "below."

The issue is, do you want to understand it from another person's perspective or continue to tell us yours?

 

[Dawnofhope]

According to who, though? If bahai respect other religions, what may be outlived to you is still alive through traditions to another. These traditions came from god. If you all have the same god your outlived traditions are the core of another persons faith. Tearing them out because they are old is tearing the heart of god.

You make it sound as if Baha'is are trying to stop other religionists following their traditions. We are not. For example we don't have communion in Baha'i meetings but we would never go to a church and tell parishioners they shouldn't take communion. If the Baha'i faith is from God, it will meet the spiritual needs of its adherents and those who come in contact with it. Eventually as Baha'is live in accordance with Baha'u'llah's teachings, they move away from old traditions. This is what happened for the Jews who became Christians. How many of the Mosaic laws and customs do the Christians now practice.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What youre saying doesnt sound like a religion. Though think of all rooms are connected but have its own doors like a mini puzzle. People can choose to go from their room and do whst bahai does or they can do the same without bahaullah interpretation. If unity and acceptence of selective ones are in your faith, why is it a religion?

When a person accepts Baha'u'llah as the manifestation of God for this day he realises the need to follow all the teachings. We can not pick and chose. However that is largely between the individual and God. Baha'is need to be loving and patient with new declarants as they learn to apply Baha'u'llah's teachings to their lives.

That and I cant get over helping all humanity througha selective revealed religious founders. There are thousands of religions. I honestly dont see how the revealed ones have more grasp on building unity (as you say) than other faiths.

If God is truly providing all humanity for Teachings that assist us for the age we live in, I can not see how abandoning those teachings and doing our own thing is gong to be better.