How are these Great Beings explained?

[Dawnofhope]

So if it is true that Judaism was influenced by these other cultures, then there's your progressiveness. One people borrows and adapts itself to new ideas... even spiritual ones. Like the Pure land Buddhists, to me, sound like they adopted some things from Christianity.

The influence of one culture over another is an important factor in progress of civilisation. It would be hard to imagine if we took the major religions out of the equation though. You would need to argue that all religion is a result of cultural influences.

So what have Baha'is adopted from other cultures? Will a Baha'i Faith get mixed with a little bit of Zen and mutate into something else? Like Christians in the U.S. like to say that American was a based a lot on the Bible, but how much does it owe to the Greeks and Romans too? For me, too much of what caused an "ever advancing" civilization has to include non-religious ideas too... since religion has held people back sometimes.

There is no doubt that one religion builds on another as with the Abrahamic Faiths. The Baha'i Faith is no exception. However there are principles and teachings that are entirely unrelated to Islam or 19th century Persian culture, and seem remarkably well suited to the modern age in which we find ourselves. This thread alone has been a development of culture and ideas as Baha'is have become more adept at considering complex religious and philosophical issues from another cultures.

You know like a cycle. Too much, too strict of religious beliefs has stifled people. Then they break free and go to far away from religion and get too "worldly." In fact, these are some very dark times we're living in. I think it's time for a new manifestation. Has it been long enough yet?

Not yet.

 

[Dawnofhope]

What laws did Christianity institute to bring civilization to the next level? "Cause it seems like Jesus was telling people not to worry about this life. He even told one person to give away all his wealth. How practical is that? But, then again, I don't know that Jesus told anyone not to keep the Law... that was more of Paul's thing wasn't it?

So I see where Paul makes the Law meaningless, because it can't save a person. Getting saved is the all important thing in Christianity and to spread the "good news"

Interesting contrast between Judaism that has 613 laws or mitzvot compared to Christianity that is really about taking an entirely different approach as you say. That attitude could be exemplified as love for God and others which ironically is OT as well.

Mitzvah - Wikipedia

that Jesus is coming back.... soon. Which he didn't. Even if you count Muhammad that wasn't for several hundred years. But, really, I don't wee how you count Muhammad as the return of Christ? And then, Baha'u'llah is another return of Christ. Oh boy.

But Jesus did return. He was resurrected through His faithful believers (the church) who brought God's kingdom on earth relatively speaking.

Anyway, back to the Law. How different is the Mosaic Law as compared to Sharia Law and Baha'i Law? I would imagine that there are a lot of similarities. Those religions do have laws from God on how to deal with every day life situations, whereas Jesus didn't.

Congratulations. This is officially the most difficult question anyone has asked me about my religion, ever!

It is like comparing the judicial system of three entirely different countries in three different cultures.

Ask me specific questions about a particular scenario that is of interest and I'll tell you how it would be handled by the Baha'is. You will need to speak to Muslims and Jews to understand the working of their theocracies.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hmmm!

When a bahai says he is christian because he shares the same belief as christians as he says he would have rights (after sacraments) to take the Eucharist. He would paricipate in catholic or other christian worship.

However, that Baha'i would not claim to rights to take the Eucharist and would not want to, because he wouldn't see the need. I wonder if you misunderstand what it means for me to be a Baha'i from a Christian background who still believes in God, Christ, and the bible.

Bahaullah has no place in being a prophet and manifestation of god. But he wont know unless he steps from bahai interpretation and look only to christ and no one else.

Baha'u'llah has every right by definition if He is a manifestation of God. He also has the right to interpret Christian texts and change their laws, just as Christ did to the Hebrews texts and laws.

To me, claiming that I am say Muslim because I for pretenx believe in the same creator and not practice Islamic belief, Im literally insulting muslim belief. One doesnt need to go to the church and physically take communion when one isnt christian. To me to identify as one religion and say youre another is totally wrong depending on the religion. It tears the heart of god.

I'm not too sure where this is coming from, but none of the Baha'is here are pretending to be something they are not.

But, yes, if you want to take away old outlawed traditions that you feel causes war like bahaullah says you have to get rid of the traditions and follow unity of love and compassion.

We do this by setting a positive example, as Christ and His disciples did. They did not go around trying to reform Judaism as they were not a reform movement. Christ brought a new religion from God and so a new way of life was established. Baha'u'llah has done the same. We're not trying to be Christians. We trying to be Baha'is.

 

[Vinayaka]

Everything I read about Hinduism, it mentions reincarnation. I suppose it is well established in the Hindu Holy Books. Have the Baha'is shown you how this is an errant belief based on a faulty interpretation of the Hindu Scriptures?

No they haven't, because they surfacely agree with the individual they're talking to. Either that or they alter the teachings or reinterpret selective quotes that 'disagree' with reincarnation. Their strategy should be well understood after over 2500 posts.

 

[Vinayaka]

No one, not Baha'i nor Christian nor any non religionists can assume 100% we are saved or we are not saved.

And then there are those of us who are neither. There is no judgement day in Hindu philosophy.

 

[Vinayaka]

When a bahai says he is christian because he shares the same belief as christians as he says he would have rights (after sacraments) to take the Eucharist. He would paricipate in catholic or other christian worship.

If a Catholic priest knew that an individual coming forward for sacraments was a non-Catholic, his duty would be to refuse the person. I know this because of friends who converted from Catholicism to Hinduism. We practice what is termed 'ethical' conversion, so the individual involved seeks ex-communication by going back to the previous religion and explaining to the good Father he no longer holds the Catholic beliefs. Then, when he tries to get communion, the priest refuses to give it to him, hence ex-communication occurs. Its come a long way since getting burned at the stake.

The principle of ethical conversion is like the principle of getting a divorce BEFORE one starts fooling around. I wish other faiths would practice it more, sending all the potential converts back to their birth religion to study for a year, and all that. Instead, its all this sneaky stuff behind everyone's back, causing emotional pain within families.

 

[Evie]

The Christian Hell sounds as remote from God as a person can get. Throw in a little fire and brimstone and your "remoteness" and their "Hell" is the same place.

But more important, where do all the people that are in between being good and bad go? And what about a Christian who has had all their sins washed away by the blood of Jesus? Do they get a higher place, even though in life they weren't perfect?

I don't think there is an in between place. Such a belief is not biblical. Either a person is good ( righteous), or they are not. And ALL of humanity is of corrupt nature. No amount of good works will make any person even a tiny bit righteous. And you are right in saying that Christians believe their sins are washed away in the blood of Jesus. And no, they do not get a higher place. All are one in Christ. This is the belief. And there is no male or female scripture states, all are one in Christ. Galations. 3: 28. Is the scripture in Thompson's Bible

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm not too sure where this is coming from, but none of the Baha'is here are pretending to be something they are not.

I get it from merely saying you believe in the scriptures of other religions. One of the definitions of a 'Hindu' for example, is 'anyone who believes in the authority of the Vedas' so if any person comes along and says, 'I believe in the authority of the Vedas' it's really fair to assume that person is a Hindu.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Hmmmm! You took my callin card. jk

However, that Baha'i would not claim to rights to take the Eucharist and would not want to, because he wouldn't see the need. I wonder if you misunderstand what it means for me to be a Baha'i from a Christian background who still believes in God, Christ, and the bible.

Im catholic minded. Actually, no, though. When I was in a southern baptist church they highly highly emphasised that jesus is the only way. If you told them any person who has even some similarity to christ and god you werent considered christian.

Christian sacraments are in all christian churches. Baptism and communiom being the most important. Just catholics feel there is a certain method that other sacraments need to uphold to be "valid."

Honestly, for a bahai to say they are christian they need to be like minded from a christian perapective because christianity isnt a univeralist faith. If there isnt scriptural "and" congregational agreement on the christian side (no bahaullah) by technicality, that bahai is not christian.

A bahai can say he is christian, follow christian teachings, and believe in christ but in my opinion it goes beyond belief.

Baha'u'llah has every right by definition if He is a manifestation of God. He also has the right to interpret Christian texts and chan

I understand that. To be christian, one cant believe that. (To be hindu one cant believe that). Whoever believes this and identify as bahai are bahai.

I'm not too sure where this is coming from, but none of the Baha'is here are pretending to be something they are not.

If I pretended I was muslim (talking about myself) and said I identify as something else, I feel thats an insult to the islam faith.

We do this by setting a positive example, as Christ and His disciples did. They did not go around trying to reform Judaism as they were not a reform movement. Christ brought a new religion from God and so a new way of life was established. Baha'u'llah has done the same. We're not trying to be Christians. We trying to be Baha'is.

Loverofhumanity and you have different views on that. Im probably criscrossing since you both are bahai. He feels he is christian and bahai.

You can be bahai and christian. You cant be christian and bahai.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

If a Catholic priest knew that an individual coming forward for sacraments was a non-Catholic, his duty would be to refuse the person. I know this because of friends who converted from Catholicism to Hinduism. We practice what is termed 'ethical' conversion, so the individual involved seeks ex-communication by going back to the previous religion and explaining to the good Father he no longer holds the Catholic beliefs. Then, when he tries to get communion, the priest refuses to give it to him, hence ex-communication occurs. Its come a long way since getting burned at the stake.

The principle of ethical conversion is like the principle of getting a divorce BEFORE one starts fooling around. I wish other faiths would practice it more, sending all the potential converts back to their birth religion to study for a year, and all that. Instead, its all this sneaky stuff behind everyone's back, causing emotional pain within families.

Exactly. Thats why I personally dont take communion. The reason is the need to repent for sins and get absolvation beforehand. That and one has to be one and likekinded as a body of christ. Like the seeds example in scripture where the types of soil and plant growth represented the strength and weakness of ones faith.

A baptist would deny someone being part of the body unless they know they are either coming to christ or already saved.

With divorce, yes, a person has to get an anulment with the church permission. The priest said excommunication is more strict on priests as congregants can go to confession or appointment to come back to the church at heart.

The church and many protestant religions JW included wouldnt consider bahai/christian a christian. I feel if one says they are christian and identify as bahai there has to be an agreement on the christian side beyons following scripture that makes one saved. They also have to worship with he body of christ and christ only.

So, yes. Long story short, I agree. Bahai is the only faith and some eclectics are the only ones i know that does this. Estanishes me though.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I get it from merely saying you believe in the scriptures of other religions. One of the definitions of a 'Hindu' for example, is 'anyone who believes in the authority of the Vedas' so if any person comes along and says, 'I believe in the authority of the Vedas' it's really fair to assume that person is a Hindu.

It is never wise to speak for anyone other than ourselves. I retract my statement.

 

[Vinayaka]

So, yes. Long story short, I agree. Bahai is the only faith and some eclectics are the only ones i know that does this. Estanishes me though.

People are free to claim whatever they want, even if it goes against established norms or definitions. On this forum, in part we have DIRs simply to avoid the hard core universalists from posting their stuff all over every religion.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is never wise to speak for anyone other than ourselves. I retract my statement.

Yes, a person can retract any statement they make, but that doesn't mean they retract their belief. They still have it, but they just won't speak it openly. That is the polite thing to do, yes, but it doesn't really change what we know about them. That's why many friends just avoid discussing religion altogether. I know that some of my Christian friends figure I'm going to hell, but they don't say it to my face repeatedly either.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Hmmmm! You took my callin card. jk

Its a form a cultural misappropriation, don't tell me

Im catholic minded. Actually, no, though. When I was in a southern baptist church they highly highly emphasised that jesus is the only way. If you told them any person who has even some similarity to christ and god you werent considered christian.

I was with the Baptists as I was investigating the Baha'i Faith. In the end, I jumped ship. No contest really.

The Medical Centre I do volunteer work at is run by Baptists. After me being there for over 5 years, they have finally implemented a policy that's says its ok to have people of different religions working there. Evidently I'm part of the furniture but we both know how to wind each other up.

Christian sacraments are in all christian churches. Baptism and communiom being the most important. Just catholics feel there is a certain method that other sacraments need to uphold to be "valid."

I'm not trying to be "valid" in the eyes of "Christians". I'm trying to follow the teachings of Christ. That's why I'm a Baha'i.

Honestly, for a bahai to say they are christian they need to be like minded from a christian perapective because christianity isnt a univeralist faith. If there isnt scriptural "and" congregational agreement on the christian side (no bahaullah) by technicality, that bahai is not christian.

What's more important, living the life or being part of the club?

A bahai can say he is christian, follow christian teachings, and believe in christ but in my opinion it goes beyond belief.

We all do what we need to do in our heart to be true to ourselves. My concern is being right with God, not so called "Christians".

I understand that. To be christian, one cant believe that. (To be hindu one cant believe that). Whoever believes this and identify as bahai are bahai.

If I consider myself to be Christian, and God considers me Christian, then am I Christian?

Loverofhumanity and you have different views on that. Im probably criscrossing since you both are bahai. He feels he is christian and bahai.

You can be bahai and christian. You cant be christian and bahai.

I'm a Baha'i, but I'm comfortable with my Christian heritage and identity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

No one, not Baha'i nor Christian nor any non religionists can assume 100% we are saved or we are not saved

The bible says one Will be saved if he/she believes in the creator, believe christ is the only way to the creator, repent, be baptized, confirm your faith as a christian, worship with the body of christ to make christ present (some protestants add you must study and believe in the bible and emphasis on thr bible as a salvational guide to christ though it teaches the opposite).

To be saved, your faith cant be part bahai and part christian. I have to get scripture since im out the house but thats against scripture too.

Its more than just believing in christ love and compassion. More than believing you are saved.

Salvation is a ongoing thing.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, a person can retract any statement they make, but that doesn't mean they retract their belief. They still have it, but they just won't speak it openly. That is the polite thing to do, yes, but it doesn't really change what we know about them. That's why many friends just avoid discussing religion altogether. I know that some of my Christian friends figure I'm going to hell, but they don't say it to my face repeatedly either.

I think people compartmentalise if you know what I mean. There is the friendship box and then there is the religion box. That's the only way to cope with it. It is an "unchristian" belief, to judge you and condemn you. That's entirely against the teachings of Jesus. Jesus counselled "Take the log out of your own eye so you can see clearly before removing the speck from your brother's eye".

As for me, I'm a Baha'i and that means I believe Krishna to be a Manifestation of God. I'm still processing that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Lol true. That is cultural appropriation. If I had a copyright it wouls be illegal by US standards.

What's more important, living the life or being part of the club?

Christianity? Being part of the club. I mean, I can see why you had an opinion with baptist. Lurtigical churches are the same. JW and LDS. And so forth. Its not a universalist religion.

If I consider myself to be Christian, and God considers me Christian, then am I Christian?

Remember. Im catholic minded with a bit of sola scriptura southern baptist in the background.

From that perspective, no. (Remember. Its the Body of christ. Brothers and sisters of christ help each other out and likewise help one onto salvaton (protestants) or back with the church etc.)

But if going outside the body of christ, yes. I have no right outside of the body to say youre not.

I'm a Baha'i, but I'm comfortable with my Christian heritage and identity.

Nothing wrong with that. Im pagan/spiritualist (dont ask. Long explanation) and still have the heart of a catholic and by Church doctrine still am a catholic.

The difference is I feel its wrong to follow christ teachings without being part of his body which is the overarch message not just isolated practices.

So I wouldnt call myself a Pagan Catholic (regardless of who says otherwise)

 

[loverofhumanity]

The bible says one Will be saved if he/she believes in the creator, believe christ is the only way to the creator, repent, be baptized, confirm your faith as a christian, worship with the body of christ to make christ present (some protestants add you must study and believe in the bible and emphasis on thr bible as a salvational guide to christ though it teaches the opposite).

To be saved, your faith cant be part bahai and part christian. I have to get scripture since im out the house but thats against scripture too.

Its more than just believing in christ love and compassion. More than believing you are saved.

Salvation is a ongoing thing.

Beautifully put Carlita that being saved is an ongoing thing.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Im saying beliefs are deeds. Compassion is a deed. Love is a deed. When you pray to Mary or postrate to jesus, that action is love and is compassion. There is no "and" and deeds are not a result of love. It is love.

Actions are not a proof of love. Actions are love.

Understand?

Isnt it first to know and then to do. How can you act if you don't first know what you want to act upon?

 

[Vinayaka]

As for me, I'm a Baha'i and that means I believe Krishna to be a Manifestation of God. I'm still processing that.

Certainly easier for me to process because I'm a Hindu's Hindu. We don't look for similarities or go around borrowing stuff from other religions, just keep mutual respect, and realise there are other world views. There is no need to discuss much.