How are these Great Beings explained?

[Unveiled Artist]

Isnt it first to know and then to do. How can you act if you don't first know what you want to act upon?

Well. When I used to go to Church with my friend before I was confirmed, I would sit and watch everyone do their thing. I'd stand and sit but wouldn't do much of anything else. Yes, I was welcomed and so on, but I didn't know about the practices of the Church because I wasn't involved in it. Yes, everyone was very welcoming. They didn't push me away as a non-believer and things of that nature. However, we had a general consensus as because I am not Catholic, I can not participate in the sacraments.

No matter how much I felt love, compassion, and connection with Christianity, christ, and biblical teachings, knowledge wasn't enough.

The knowledge/compassion was in the action.

So, when I went through baptism, that in and of itself was the love of god/spirit. It was like being literally (water) and spiritually (by heart) washed from the sins to be in full union with the body of christ.

Repentance/confession is an action. It's not a feeling of being forgiven it's an actual action of being forgiven.

When you forgive someone, you don't just say the words. You act in (not as a result of) forgiveness.

The knowledge is embedded in the action.

How can you experience compassion or feel it if you don't act it?

How do you experience the rush of intimacy if you are not intimate?

and so forth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thanks, I think maybe doing less things in Latin might also be one of the changes.

I thought they were bring latin mass back. I know they still have high Mass in latin. The parish priest said to us they wanted to bring back veneration of the saints since that is being lost in liberal catholicism, if thats a term.

 

[paarsurrey]

So how do you interpret the claims of Baha'u'llah?

Please give:

1. a claim from him
2. and the reason
3. from the truthful Word Revealed from God,

if one wants to know my opinion.

Religious claims and reasons must be from a revealed book from God.
Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

I wouldn't think so. The only religion I know is Christianity and some of Buddhism. However, instead of taking second and third opinion, I prefer to ask a Muslim.

I don't think Baha'u'llah has anything to do with Quran/Islam/Muhammad. He started a new religion of his own, as per my information while Quran/Islam/Muhammad has already provided a lasting religion relevant in all the times to come after Muhammad till the doomsday, and this is very much mentioned in Quran in unequivocal terms.
Would one like me to quote from Quran in this connection? Please
Regards

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't think Baha'u'llah has anything to do with Quran/Islam/Muhammad. He started a new religion of his own, as per my information while Quran/Islam/Muhammad has already provided a lasting religion relevant in all the times to come after Muhammad till the doomsday, and this is very much mentioned in Quran in unequivocal terms.
Would one like me to quote from Quran in this connection? Please
Regards

Well. I dont doubt what you say. I dont know if it would help with bahai claim. Depends on whoever is interested in knowing Muslim belief.

I kinda figured bahaullah didnt have a place in Islam. I did know that Muhammads teachings wasnt relevant only for his period. What got me with bahai belief is that christ, krishna, buddha, and muhammad have the same god and are progressive revelations of religions until todays revelation to replace traditions that cause war and division.

What can I say.

 

[CG Didymus]

I'm curious Didymus... How would you interpret the following verses from the Gospel of John?

5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

(King James Bible, John)

Several difficulties... I'll listen to Christians and how they interpret their Bible. I'll listen to Jews on how they interpret their Bible, and why they don't believe Jesus is not their Messiah. I'll listen to the Baha'is also. I've enjoyed these threads started by Baha'i more than any other. Because you do accept and listen to other people more than most. But, I'll also listen to non-Christian opinions on the Bible.

So one problem: Who wrote the NT. And, who wrote John. I've heard that the writing style and use of grammar between the gospel of John and the John of Revelation is different. So I have no problem in believing that other people were involved in composing these books.

Another problem: I'm told that the gospel was written years after the events. No way did John witness all these events. No way could John have remembered exactly what was said. Christians say the Holy Spirit guided him and helped him remember? The best I can say to that is "maybe".

John writes about the resurrection as if it was a physical coming back to life of someone who had died. In his or other gospels it talks about Lazarus being brought back to life after being dead, I think, four days. Baha'is don't believe Jesus came back to life, so how about Lazarus? So I say good chance "spiritual" embellishment of the story to make Jesus greater than he really was.

Now I believe there is a chance it is exactly how the NT says. Jesus came back to life. He came to save sinners from hell and will return to conquer Satan. Stupid? Yes. Unlikely? For sure. But is there a chance? Yes. And if it is true, then Jesus, if not part of a triune God, then is pretty darn close.

The greatest difficulty in believing full on, born again Christianity, is that it makes all other religions untrue. I don't like that idea at all. But what are all these religions? I think there's a good chance primitive people made up gods. Some had mystical experiences and visions, but they usually, or always, were related to their people and their culture.

Then cultures clashed. Ideas of spiritual evolved. Dumb and some superstitious ideas got left behind. One god concepts came in and said many gods is false, not part of a progression, but false. Monotheistic cultures dominate and suppress and try to eradicate other religions that they believe are false.

The Jews have their Bible, then Jesus comes. Too many Christian concepts seem to have roots in Pagan religions. So is it true or just a blend of some Jewish ideas mixed with Paganism? The Christian write their NT. If it is true than Jesus is greater than Moses. He is the Savior and God's only Son. But, a great chance it's all embellishment to make Jesus a virtual god in order to gain converts.

So I really don't care which interpretation is the truth, if any. If I believe my Jewish friends, Jesus is nothing. If I believe my Christian friends, Jesus is everything. If I believe the Baha'is, Moses and Jesus are equal and one of the Baha'is even quoted something about Baha'u'llah being greater. I say then, prove it. Because, for me, it is too convoluted to believe the Baha'i interpretation. The Bible is true, but doesn't mean what Christian say it means? Hinduism is true, but reincarnation is not true.

The world definitely needs peace and unity, but why haven't all these other religions been successful? Their religions get taken over by corrupt leaders? The Word of God gets "traditions" mixed in so that the original meaning is lost? Why? Your religion is made of fallible people, will God protect it from corruption? Then why didn't he do it with the other religions?

Too many questions and not enough believable and provable answers.And that's why we're here. So thanks for sharing your beliefs and your hope of a peaceful, united world.

 

[CG Didymus]

But Jesus did return. He was resurrected through His faithful believers (the church) who brought God's kingdom on earth relatively speaking.

...This is officially the most difficult question anyone has asked me about my religion, ever!

It is like comparing the judicial system of three entirely different countries in three different cultures.

Ask me specific questions about a particular scenario that is of interest and I'll tell you how it would be handled by the Baha'is. You will need to speak to Muslims and Jews to understand the working of their theocracies.

To Christians, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is what got them going. I've been asking about Armageddon and the Beast and things, because the Christian view is that all the bad things happen and then Jesus comes back and "poof" evil is destroyed... A new Jerusalem descends out of heaven and God and the "Lamb" rule.

But with believing the Baha'i Faith, Christ, in the person of Baha'u'llah, has come already and all the bad things are still with us. I'd say that this is a big issue with a lot of those that grew up Christian. They are expecting things to happen as to how they were taught by Christians. And since we are talking about the Book of Revelation, it can be interpreted a whole bunch of ways.

About the Law thing: I think the laws were made to fit the times and the people... but not necessarily coming from God, but from people, then attributed to God. For me, some of the laws sound too ridiculous to have come from God. So when you talk about "traditions", I think some of these laws fit into that definition better then being a Law of God.

So don't worry about the laws. If we don't have some "prophet" telling us what God Law is, then we make a law ourselves. And we keep amending, repealing, changing, or making new laws... and we keep breaking them or finding ways to get around them. Problem is... it's hard to repeal a law that a Holy Book says is "God's Law".

 

[CG Didymus]

Please give:

1. a claim from him
2. and the reason
3. from the truthful Word Revealed from God,

if one wants to know my opinion.

Religious claims and reasons must be from a revealed book from God.
Regards

The main claim is that he is the return of the promised one of all religions, including Islam. One of the Baha'is here can give to the details, but they're in this thread already.... somewhere.

 

[CG Didymus]

No they haven't, because they surfacely agree with the individual they're talking to. Either that or they alter the teachings or reinterpret selective quotes that 'disagree' with reincarnation. Their strategy should be well understood after over 2500 posts.

The life after death question is a big deal in most religions. In Christianity they use it to scare people. "Do you know where you will go when you die?" Then they show the poor sucker that because they don't "know" Jesus, they will go to hell.

Apparently, some Jews don't even worry about the after life. Baha'is say all go to another spiritual kind of realm and keep progressing. So how do they reconcile all of this? They make it all allegory or misinterpretations or that the "original" meaning got lost.

I personally like the "many paths" idea. That the destination, however described, has many different ways to get there. The people that hold that type of view seem to respect another person's path a little better. Since they are saying, "My path works for me, and I see how your path works for you. I'll see you at the top."

The Baha'i view is more like, "Your path used to get to the top of the mountain, but the road has long since closed."

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well. When I used to go to Church with my friend before I was confirmed, I would sit and watch everyone do their thing. I'd stand and sit but wouldn't do much of anything else. Yes, I was welcomed and so on, but I didn't know about the practices of the Church because I wasn't involved in it. Yes, everyone was very welcoming. They didn't push me away as a non-believer and things of that nature. However, we had a general consensus as because I am not Catholic, I can not participate in the sacraments.

No matter how much I felt love, compassion, and connection with Christianity, christ, and biblical teachings, knowledge wasn't enough.

The knowledge/compassion was in the action.

So, when I went through baptism, that in and of itself was the love of god/spirit. It was like being literally (water) and spiritually (by heart) washed from the sins to be in full union with the body of christ.

Repentance/confession is an action. It's not a feeling of being forgiven it's an actual action of being forgiven.

When you forgive someone, you don't just say the words. You act in (not as a result of) forgiveness.

The knowledge is embedded in the action.

How can you experience compassion or feel it if you don't act it?

How do you experience the rush of intimacy if you are not intimate?

and so forth.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Well. When I used to go to Church with my friend before I was confirmed, I would sit and watch everyone do their thing. I'd stand and sit but wouldn't do much of anything else. Yes, I was welcomed and so on, but I didn't know about the practices of the Church because I wasn't involved in it. Yes, everyone was very welcoming. They didn't push me away as a non-believer and things of that nature. However, we had a general consensus as because I am not Catholic, I can not participate in the sacraments.

No matter how much I felt love, compassion, and connection with Christianity, christ, and biblical teachings, knowledge wasn't enough.

The knowledge/compassion was in the action.

So, when I went through baptism, that in and of itself was the love of god/spirit. It was like being literally (water) and spiritually (by heart) washed from the sins to be in full union with the body of christ.

Repentance/confession is an action. It's not a feeling of being forgiven it's an actual action of being forgiven.

When you forgive someone, you don't just say the words. You act in (not as a result of) forgiveness.

The knowledge is embedded in the action.

How can you experience compassion or feel it if you don't act it?

How do you experience the rush of intimacy if you are not intimate?

and so forth.

Yes you learn from practice but you must first have knowledge or be conscious of what it is you are attempting to do. First there is the knowedge that you want to show compassion then you develop the will power to do it then lastly you act and then learn from the result.

It's a process that begins not with the action first but with knowledge then volition, then last of all the action then the feedback.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Certainly easier for me to process because I'm a Hindu's Hindu. We don't look for similarities or go around borrowing stuff from other religions, just keep mutual respect, and realise there are other world views. There is no need to discuss much.

Just came across this today. How do you see this about death.

"You will retain your individuality and will not be swallowed up in one vast spirit. Concerning the condition of the human soul after its ascension from the material world: the essence of the human soul is clarified from material substances and purified from the embodiment of physical things. It is exclusively luminous; it has no body; it is a dazzling pencil of light; it is a celestial orb of brightness." (Abdu’l-Baha, The Eternal Quest For God, p 218)

 

[Evie]

Several difficulties... I'll listen to Christians and how they interpret their Bible. I'll listen to Jews on how they interpret their Bible, and why they don't believe Jesus is not their Messiah. I'll listen to the Baha'is also. I've enjoyed these threads started by Baha'i more than any other. Because you do accept and listen to other people more than most. But, I'll also listen to non-Christian opinions on the Bible.

So one problem: Who wrote the NT. And, who wrote John. I've heard that the writing style and use of grammar between the gospel of John and the John of Revelation is different. So I have no problem in believing that other people were involved in composing these books.

Another problem: I'm told that the gospel was written years after the events. No way did John witness all these events. No way could John have remembered exactly what was said. Christians say the Holy Spirit guided him and helped him remember? The best I can say to that is "maybe".

John writes about the resurrection as if it was a physical coming back to life of someone who had died. In his or other gospels it talks about Lazarus being brought back to life after being dead, I think, four days. Baha'is don't believe Jesus came back to life, so how about Lazarus? So I say good chance "spiritual" embellishment of the story to make Jesus greater than he really was.

Now I believe there is a chance it is exactly how the NT says. Jesus came back to life. He came to save sinners from hell and will return to conquer Satan. Stupid? Yes. Unlikely? For sure. But is there a chance? Yes. And if it is true, then Jesus, if not part of a triune God, then is pretty darn close.

The greatest difficulty in believing full on, born again Christianity, is that it makes all other religions untrue. I don't like that idea at all. But what are all these religions? I think there's a good chance primitive people made up gods. Some had mystical experiences and visions, but they usually, or always, were related to their people and their culture.

Then cultures clashed. Ideas of spiritual evolved. Dumb and some superstitious ideas got left behind. One god concepts came in and said many gods is false, not part of a progression, but false. Monotheistic cultures dominate and suppress and try to eradicate other religions that they believe are false.

The Jews have their Bible, then Jesus comes. Too many Christian concepts seem to have roots in Pagan religions. So is it true or just a blend of some Jewish ideas mixed with Paganism? The Christian write their NT. If it is true than Jesus is greater than Moses. He is the Savior and God's only Son. But, a great chance it's all embellishment to make Jesus a virtual god in order to gain converts.

So I really don't care which interpretation is the truth, if any. If I believe my Jewish friends, Jesus is nothing. If I believe my Christian friends, Jesus is everything. If I believe the Baha'is, Moses and Jesus are equal and one of the Baha'is even quoted something about Baha'u'llah being greater. I say then, prove it. Because, for me, it is too convoluted to believe the Baha'i interpretation. The Bible is true, but doesn't mean what Christian say it means? Hinduism is true, but reincarnation is not true.

The world definitely needs peace and unity, but why haven't all these other religions been successful? Their religions get taken over by corrupt leaders? The Word of God gets "traditions" mixed in so that the original meaning is lost? Why? Your religion is made of fallible people, will God protect it from corruption? Then why didn't he do it with the other religions?

Too many questions and not enough believable and provable answers.And that's why we're here. So thanks for sharing your beliefs and your hope of a peaceful, united world.

When I first joined the Forum, I asked a question to which I never did receive any answers. The question being: For what reason does a System of Religious Beliefs exist? God has not prevented such a system to form. Could it be possible it is there for a reason of which humanity is unaware? And when knowing what we do not know, we may understand why Christianity is the most formidable of all religious beliefs.

 

[danieldemol]

I don't think Baha'u'llah has anything to do with Quran/Islam/Muhammad. He started a new religion of his own, as per my information while Quran/Islam/Muhammad has already provided a lasting religion relevant in all the times to come after Muhammad till the doomsday, and this is very much mentioned in Quran in unequivocal terms.
Would one like me to quote from Quran in this connection? Please
Regards

It won't be of use as Baha'is believe that the religion of Muhammad is relevant till doomsday also, the difference is we believe that doomsday has already come.
You might understand how Baha'is believe this from the Quran if you peruse point IV on this website Some Notes on Bahá'í Proofs Based on the Qur'an
Kind regards

 

[Dawnofhope]

So one problem: Who wrote the NT. And, who wrote John. I've heard that the writing style and use of grammar between the gospel of John and the John of Revelation is different. So I have no problem in believing that other people were involved in composing these books.

I think as Baha'is we have to be guided by modern research and scholarship, unless the Baha'i writings authoratively provide a different picture. Conservative Christians agree that Luke and Mark were not eyewitnesses to events concerning Christ and they were companions of Paul. The gospel of Mark was written first, probably between 55 and 65 AD. The Gospel of Matthew was written later and uses 90% of the material in the Gospel of Mark. There are serious questions as to whether or not the disciple Matthew actually wrote this gospel, as with the authorship of the Gospel of John. However they are all considered by Baha'i writings to be treated with reverence. respect, and as sacred scripture. The following paper highlights diverse opinions amongst Baha'is which in a sense reflects diverse opinions amongst Christians.

A Bahá'í View of the Bible

Another problem: I'm told that the gospel was written years after the events. No way did John witness all these events. No way could John have remembered exactly what was said. Christians say the Holy Spirit guided him and helped him remember? The best I can say to that is "maybe".

John writes about the resurrection as if it was a physical coming back to life of someone who had died. In his or other gospels it talks about Lazarus being brought back to life after being dead, I think, four days. Baha'is don't believe Jesus came back to life, so how about Lazarus? So I say good chance "spiritual" embellishment of the story to make Jesus greater than he really was.

The book of John provides a very different portrait of the historical Jesus compared to the synoptic gospels and the language use to describe events and portray Jesus's words differ significantly too. There seems to be more miraculous events recorded.

Now I believe there is a chance it is exactly how the NT says. Jesus came back to life. He came to save sinners from hell and will return to conquer Satan. Stupid? Yes. Unlikely? For sure. But is there a chance? Yes. And if it is true, then Jesus, if not part of a triune God, then is pretty darn close.

How likely do you think it is that Jesus literally rose above the clouds to be with His Father in heaven. Just curious, because as you know that's the big issue for me, and the irreconcilable contradiction Abdu'l-Baha highlights.

The greatest difficulty in believing full on, born again Christianity, is that it makes all other religions untrue. I don't like that idea at all. But what are all these religions? I think there's a good chance primitive people made up gods. Some had mystical experiences and visions, but they usually, or always, were related to their people and their culture.

From what we know about the revealed books in the Abrahamic Faiths, it is extremely hard to see it has being primative IMHO.

The Jews have their Bible, then Jesus comes. Too many Christian concepts seem to have roots in Pagan religions. So is it true or just a blend of some Jewish ideas mixed with Paganism? The Christian write their NT. If it is true than Jesus is greater than Moses. He is the Savior and God's only Son. But, a great chance it's all embellishment to make Jesus a virtual god in order to gain converts.

So I really don't care which interpretation is the truth, if any. If I believe my Jewish friends, Jesus is nothing. If I believe my Christian friends, Jesus is everything. If I believe the Baha'is, Moses and Jesus are equal and one of the Baha'is even quoted something about Baha'u'llah being greater. I say then, prove it. Because, for me, it is too convoluted to believe the Baha'i interpretation. The Bible is true, but doesn't mean what Christian say it means? Hinduism is true, but reincarnation is not true.

The world definitely needs peace and unity, but why haven't all these other religions been successful? Their religions get taken over by corrupt leaders? The Word of God gets "traditions" mixed in so that the original meaning is lost? Why? Your religion is made of fallible people, will God protect it from corruption? Then why didn't he do it with the other religions?

All excellent questions.

Too many questions and not enough believable and provable answers.And that's why we're here. So thanks for sharing your beliefs and your hope of a peaceful, united world.

To Christians, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is what got them going. I've been asking about Armageddon and the Beast and things, because the Christian view is that all the bad things happen and then Jesus comes back and "poof" evil is destroyed... A new Jerusalem descends out of heaven and God and the "Lamb" rule.

But with believing the Baha'i Faith, Christ, in the person of Baha'u'llah, has come already and all the bad things are still with us. I'd say that this is a big issue with a lot of those that grew up Christian. They are expecting things to happen as to how they were taught by Christians. And since we are talking about the Book of Revelation, it can be interpreted a whole bunch of ways.

It's hard for Christians to see Baha'u'llah as being the return of Christ, as it is for adherents of the other major religions. That's been highlighted with this thread and I wouldn't expect anything different.

About the Law thing: I think the laws were made to fit the times and the people... but not necessarily coming from God, but from people, then attributed to God. For me, some of the laws sound too ridiculous to have come from God. So when you talk about "traditions", I think some of these laws fit into that definition better then being a Law of God.

From my study of Mosaic law a few months ago when talking to the Jews, I was amazed at the breadth and scope of the laws that had been revealed three and a half thousand years ago. For I while there was a glimpse of the way it could have all worked out if the Jews had not strayed so badly.

So don't worry about the laws. If we don't have some "prophet" telling us what God Law is, then we make a law ourselves. And we keep amending, repealing, changing, or making new laws... and we keep breaking them or finding ways to get around them. Problem is... it's hard to repeal a law that a Holy Book says is "God's Law".

As you know Baha'is do have laws that are unchangeable (eg to do with obligatory prayer and fasting), but its up to the Universal House of Justice to rule on matters that have not been explicitly revealed.

Its great to have you here asking the tough questions.

 

[Evie]

Just came across this today. How do you see this about death.

"You will retain your individuality and will not be swallowed up in one vast spirit. Concerning the condition of the human soul after its ascension from the material world: the essence of the human soul is clarified from material substances and purified from the embodiment of physical things. It is exclusively luminous; it has no body; it is a dazzling pencil of light; it is a celestial orb of brightness." (Abdu’l-Baha, The Eternal Quest For God, p 218)

Sounds lovely. The Christian Bible states there is no male or female, all are one in Christ. Galations 3: 28 So where does that leave individuality?

 

[Evie]

S

Sounds lovely. The Christian Bible states there is no male or female, all are one in Christ. Galations 3: 28 So where does that leave individuality?

So which is the truth? One day that too will be known, but for now we only have beliefs.

 

[arthra]

oo many questions and not enough believable and provable answers.And that's why we're here. So thanks for sharing you

I don't think Baha'u'llah has anything to do with Quran/Islam/Muhammad. He started a new religion of his own, as per my information while Quran/Islam/Muhammad has already provided a lasting religion relevant in all the times to come after Muhammad till the doomsday, and this is very much mentioned in Quran in unequivocal terms.
Would one like me to quote from Quran in this connection? Please
Regards

Actually the Baha'i Faith is more of a fulfillment of the prophecies about the return of the Twelfth Imam in Shiah Islam... there were actually two movements separated by ocean and continents and wide cultural disparity...
.... I'm refering to two parallel historical movements.. One beginning in north america known as the Millerite movement that focused on the expected return of Christ in 1844 ... and the shakhi movement in Persia that centered largely around Shakh Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim that expected the reappearance of the Twelfth Imam in the year 60 or 1260 AH of the Muslim calendar. It happens that these dates coincided 1844 AD and 1260 AH with the Declaration of Siyyid Ali Muhammad of Shiraz the "Bab"- Gate that He was the Promised One the expected Mahdi... Mirza Husayn Ali latter known as Baha'u'llah was "Him Whom God would make manifest" mentioned by the Bab. So it was in this context. The Judgement Day was the end of the prophetic cycle and the beginning of the cycle of fulfillment.

 

[Evie]

Ti

To Christians, the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is what got them going. I've been asking about Armageddon and the Beast and things, because the Christian view is that all the bad things happen and then Jesus comes back and "poof" evil is destroyed... A new Jerusalem descends out of heaven and God and the "Lamb" rule.

But with believing the Baha'i Faith, Christ, in the person of Baha'u'llah, has come already and all the bad things are still with us. I'd say that this is a big issue with a lot of those that grew up Christian. They are expecting things to happen as to how they were taught by Christians. And since we are talking about the Book of Revelation, it can be interpreted a whole bunch of ways.

About the Law thing: I think the laws were made to fit the times and the people... but not necessarily coming from God, but from people, then attributed to God. For me, some of the laws sound too ridiculous to have come from God. So when you talk about "traditions", I think some of these laws fit into that definition better then being a Law of God.

So don't worry about the laws. If we don't have some "prophet" telling us what God Law is, then we make a law ourselves. And we keep amending, repealing, changing, or making new laws... and we keep breaking them or finding ways to get around them. Problem is... it's hard to repeal a law that a Holy Book says is "God's Law".

. Times and places may change, but people never do.

 

[Evie]

The life after death question is a big deal in most religions. In Christianity they use it to scare people. "Do you know where you will go when you die?" Then they show the poor sucker that because they don't "know" Jesus, they will go to hell.

Apparently, some Jews don't even worry about the after life. Baha'is say all go to another spiritual kind of realm and keep progressing. So how do they reconcile all of this? They make it all allegory or misinterpretations or that the "original" meaning got lost.

I personally like the "many paths" idea. That the destination, however described, has many different ways to get there. The people that hold that type of view seem to respect another person's path a little better. Since they are saying, "My path works for me, and I see how your path works for you. I'll see you at the top."

The Baha'i view is more like, "Your path used to get to the top of the mountain, but the road has long since closed."

How do you know that those so-called ' suckers' are being fooled? Maybe what is being shown them in scripture is truth.